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Circle of fifths
Topic Started: 6 Oct 2014, 05:37 PM (3,320 Views)
ocarinaguru3
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Ok, so, I know this has been talked about before, but I'm still so confused. I've seen the pictures, and I've had people explain to me how it works, but, I don't understand what they're saying XD

Is there anyone who could possibly explain how the circle of fifths works in semi-light terms?
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Robert Hickman
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Start on C on the piano, Go up a fifth, Now you're on G. Start on G and up a fifth, you land on D. etc.
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Gyzyn
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^ That's how my piano teacher taught me. Though, I prefer to just check the circle of fifths.
Edited by Gyzyn, 6 Oct 2014, 06:16 PM.
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ocarinaguru3
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Now why couldn't anybody else have explained it that way... lol wow, thank you guys XD Everyone else who tried explaining it to me went into like a philosophical blabber using complicated terms and other stuff XD
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Jack Campin
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Simple explanations are often not very useful explanations.

What goes along with that is the story of how key signatures relate to each other. That takes longer to explain, but once you understand it you can do things with it.

Try an elementary book like The AB Guide to Music Theory, How to Crack Music Theory or Music Theory for Dummies. They are all good.
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carbon


A lot of people have trouble with learning something if there isn't an application for it. People can talk about theory and its purpose until they're blue in the face, but if you don't have a cognitive anchor to see its value and purpose, then it's going to be more of an uphill battle.

Posted Image


The above chart is very hand, especially for people who play the ocarina. I'll try to illustrate how it works on ocarinas and the idea of using the ocarina to transpose for you. I'm not going to go into relative key or anything like that yet. I just want to illustrate a certain truth about the ocarina.


You have an ocarina in C. You can play it in G if you play F# and you can play it in F if you play Bb. The moves you one step up and down on the chart. You can see on the chart how up one has Bb and down one has F#.

Now if you grab a G ocarina and use the exact same fingerings as if you are playing a C ocarina in G, guess what will happen? You'll add a sharp, which will be C#. Playing your G ocarina with the same fingerings as playing G on a C ocarina will get you playing in D.

Now looking at the chart, if you have an ocarina in F and play the F ocarina as if you are playing a C ocarina in F, what key will you play?

I know it seems very complicated, so if you have a C ocarina and a G or F ocarina, try it out and see what notes you play and how the "accidentals" line up. The value here is if you know a song on a C ocarina in a certain key, you can easily work out what key ocarina to use to play it in another key.

I can play Greensleeves in G on a C ocarina. If I'm playing with someone who only knows it in D, then I can just grab a G ocarina and use the same fingerings I've always used. This is the beginning of transposing and basically allows you to use ocarinas to do the work for you.

I hope this introduction has helped.



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Nightlark
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I have found that a lot of simple things in music are over complicated like the circle of fifths. It really is go up a fifth and add a sharp or go down a fifth and add a flat.
Edited by Nightlark, 7 Oct 2014, 07:16 AM.
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Robert Hickman
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Quote:
 
I can play Greensleeves in G on a C ocarina. If I'm playing with someone who only knows it in D, then I can just grab a G ocarina and use the same fingerings I've always used. This is the beginning of transposing and basically allows you to use ocarinas to do the work for you.


Yes, besides that the tune seems to be in Lydian mode, possibly dorian in the second part, and resolves to E not G. If you are playing one sharp on a C ocarina, and not going out of range, you are probably in a minor of some description, seeing as the high f# and G don't exist on the instrument.

There is a table of the easiest keys to play on this page:
http://pureocarinas.co.uk/playing-techniques/basic-scaleskeys-for-single-ocarinas/
Edited by Robert Hickman, 7 Oct 2014, 10:16 AM.
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pandorado100
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I find the Periodic Table of Elements easier to decipher than the Circle of Fifths. But I can grasp the concept of playing in other keys on a C ocarina. I sometimes do that for ear training. I will play Twinkle Twinkle Little Star starting off with a different note each time and figuring out how to play the rest of the song so the notes have the same intervals. I have no idea what key I'm in but I know what notes sounds right and what doesn't sound correct.
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Jack Campin
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On a C ocarina, Greensleeves is in G minor.

Your table of "easy" keys has no resemblance to what I find easy.

The plagal major mode of G is dead easy and very commonly useful on a C ocarina.
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Robert Hickman
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What one finds easy depends entirely on the music you're playing, and yes I agree G plagal is easy on an alto C, adding all these odd modes to the table would make it ridiculously huge and overcomplicated it. It's easier to think in terms of note range needed, without worrying about what key/mode you're technically in.

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Nightlark
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I have heard so many variations of Greensleeves, but I have no idea which one is the original.
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Jack Campin
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The point about distinguishing plagal and authentic modes is that it helps you decide what you can play. An authentic mode has a tonal centre at each end of a roughly one-octave range, a plagal mode has the tonal centre in the middle. Merely knowing that a tune is in G doesn't tell you if you can play it on a C ocarina - that G has to be in the middle of the tune.

A lot of people go through that sort of reasoning without putting words to what they're doing. But the terminology is so simple anybody can learn to use it immediately, and using standard labels means you can communicate what you know more effectively.
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carbon


pandorado100
7 Oct 2014, 01:26 PM
I find the Periodic Table of Elements easier to decipher than the Circle of Fifths. But I can grasp the concept of playing in other keys on a C ocarina. I sometimes do that for ear training. I will play Twinkle Twinkle Little Star starting off with a different note each time and figuring out how to play the rest of the song so the notes have the same intervals. I have no idea what key I'm in but I know what notes sounds right and what doesn't sound correct.
If you know what notes you're fingering, then you aren't far for knowing in what key you're playing. Just look at your sharps/flats and count them and then move up and down the chart by that corresponding number. It works regardless of which ocarina you are using. If your ocarina is in G, start at G and move up or down the corresponding sharps/flats.

We can talk about it more at the festival if you like.
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Robert Hickman
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And one sharp isn't always G, it can also be E minor. One flat may be F or D minor.
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carbon


It isn't necessary going into relative minor when introducing the concept of the circle of fifths. Since ocarina nomenclature uses the major key it allows for easy conversion and understanding. Additionally, it may create a false expectation that the relative minor works best on it's corresponding "major" ocarina.

Once a person understands the underlying function, relative minor is a very short mental jump.
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Jack Campin
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The circle of fifths works in a parallel way on minor keys, and it's useful to know that when planning sequences of key changes.

e.g.

F major -> (relative minor) D minor -> (subdominant) G minor -> (relative major) B flat major

gives you a longer and more scenic route compared to

F major -> (subdominant) B flat major
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Pat Anderson
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Robert Hickman
7 Oct 2014, 09:50 PM
And one sharp isn't always G, it can also be E minor. One flat may be F or D minor.
Or one sharp may be A Dorian...and so it goes.

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teddeler
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I found this on youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gt2zubHcER4

He gets to the circle of fifths about halfway through and explains it in terms a layperson can understand. It appears the circle of fifths explains our scale of 12 half tones as well as the width of a piano - it's a full circle of fifths (though I suppose that could be a coincidence). Give it a listen.

I think it's part of a longer lecture series which I intend to listen to. This is the first one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MB7ZOdp__gQ
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Jack Campin
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Leonard Bernstein's popularizations are fine for describing the mindset of the classical music scene in the mid-to-late-20th-century US, but his attitudes were fixed a few decades before those videos were made.

The early music movement was already getting up steam towards the end of his career, and so was the trend for art music ot incorporate stylistic and technical features from the music of other cultures and periods.

In the postmodern present, the circle of fifths doesn't have the same centrality as it does in music designed to fit on a Steinway. And the ocarina dates to a period when it was technically impossible to tune any instrument in mathematically equal temperament - there never has been a time when equal temperament theory matched the instrument's physics.

So if you feel that Lenny's theory doesn't exactly make sense for what you play, you're probably right.
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acox
Andy Cox
teddeler
16 Oct 2014, 03:29 PM
I found this on youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gt2zubHcER4

He gets to the circle of fifths about halfway through and explains it in terms a layperson can understand. It appears the circle of fifths explains our scale of 12 half tones as well as the width of a piano - it's a full circle of fifths (though I suppose that could be a coincidence). Give it a listen.

I think it's part of a longer lecture series which I intend to listen to. This is the first one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MB7ZOdp__gQ
thank you for posting these lectures. It has been an enjoyable two hours....will view all this weekend.

absolutely wonderful
Edited by acox, 17 Oct 2014, 02:49 AM.
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teddeler
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Jack Campin
17 Oct 2014, 01:19 AM
Leonard Bernstein's popularizations are fine for describing the mindset of the classical music scene in the mid-to-late-20th-century US, but his attitudes were fixed a few decades before those videos were made.

The early music movement was already getting up steam towards the end of his career, and so was the trend for art music ot incorporate stylistic and technical features from the music of other cultures and periods.

In the postmodern present, the circle of fifths doesn't have the same centrality as it does in music designed to fit on a Steinway. And the ocarina dates to a period when it was technically impossible to tune any instrument in mathematically equal temperament - there never has been a time when equal temperament theory matched the instrument's physics.

So if you feel that Lenny's theory doesn't exactly make sense for what you play, you're probably right.
I'm not into music theory enough to have any kind of opinion on different music movements or make a judgement on different theories.
As for tuning my ocarina - if I'm somewhere in the ballpark of the note I'm aiming at, I'm happy. It's not like I'm trying to make a living at it. :blush:

No, what interests me is history - where do things begin? Why are things the way they are? Recently I've been wondering why we have a 12 semi-tone scale. To find you can derive the 12 semi-tones with a circle of fifths and that the fifth is a natural harmonic that is intrinsicly pleasing to the human ear is kind of cool. Music is part math, part nature, and part biology.

I'd also been wondering about the pentatonic scale. I could find listings of the notes in different pentatonic scales and some people really into natural tuning (vs. equal temperament) rave about the pentatonic but I couldn't find a good explanation as to what exactly a pentatonic scale was or where it came from. The lecture I linked to before (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MB7ZOdp__gQ) has a great explanation of it starting around 28:00, though I had to back up and relisten to it because I didn't realize he was talking about pentatonic scales until 15 minutes later (it has to do with harmonic series and overtones). Probably basic stuff for you, Jack, but I'm still in the early stages of discovery where music is concerned.
acox
17 Oct 2014, 02:48 AM
thank you for posting these lectures. It has been an enjoyable two hours....will view all this weekend.

absolutely wonderful
Glad you're enjoying them. I've had a couple of pleasant hours today as well. Interesting stuff.
Edited by teddeler, 17 Oct 2014, 04:47 AM.
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Jack Campin
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Quote:
 
Recently I've been wondering why we have a 12 semi-tone scale.

Who is this "we"? Play music from before 1750 on an instrument with flexible intonation and you don't.

If you look at the charts in my pages about Scottish flute music, you'll find a fingering chart that gives you different fingerings (and pitches) for G# and Ab. some time in the middle of the 19th century. That was for playing standard Scottish traditional tunes.

Quote:
 
To find you can derive the 12 semi-tones with a circle of fifths and that the fifth is a natural harmonic that is intrinsicly pleasing to the human ear is kind of cool.

There's nothing intrinsic about it, and historically very few human cultures have rated perfect fifths at all in their music. Listen to the demo of slendro here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ku9iH2pU9g

It's a scale used by a sophisticated culture for centuries and doesn't have either fifths or semitones. Here's another piece that doesn't have either (follow the links in the uploader's comments for an explanation):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeN-wJ1_YI4

Here's an ocarina designed for yet another scale with no fifth:

http://theocarinanetwork.com/topic/6833951/

Quote:
 
I'd also been wondering about the pentatonic scale. I could find listings of the notes in different pentatonic scales and some people really into natural tuning (vs. equal temperament) rave about the pentatonic but I couldn't find a good explanation as to what exactly a pentatonic scale was or where it came from.

Lots in my modes tutorial. Nobody knows how far back the common one found in European and Chinese music goes, but my guess is that it started in central Asia. Seven-note scales seem to be a lot older, but not necessarily the same ones we use - they are documented in Sumerian music texts on clay tablets from 4000 years ago (something Lenny didn't know about).
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acox
Andy Cox
they are documented in Sumerian music texts on clay tablets from 4000 years ago (something Lenny didn't know about).

Well Jack, he may not have mentioned all that he knew in those few lectures. Of course new speculation occurs each day, for example the dates of certain paleolithic art pieces. I learned the dates 40-60,000 years ago, then "modern" dating methods were applied and the dates were indicated as being 10-20,000 (1980's). Now, the dates are 40 - 60,000 years ago. It often seems that certain speculations/specifics may not help with broad explanations.
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Jack Campin
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Kilmer first published her decoding of the Sumerian stuff in 1960, in more detail in her book in 1971. That was very late in Bernstein's career and he was no ethnomusicologist. It still hasn't got into mainstream college courses and I don't believe he ever heard of it, let alone realized its significance.
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teddeler
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Posted Image

"What do you mean 'we', paleface?" :)

I mean, of course, people who use the western-european style of music in which the vast majority of all of the music I have heard all of my life as well as all of the music I have seen written down is done in. If that doesn't include you, Jack, my apologies, I wasn't trying to be exclusive. :monocle:

Quote:
 
There's nothing intrinsic about it, and historically very few human cultures have rated perfect fifths at all in their music.

It is, at least, a natural harmonic from a physics standpoint (and some people must like the way it sounds, considering how much it's been used :) ). I find its use in the circle of fifths to find the twelve semi-tones in a strangely popular western-european style of music interesting.

Quote:
 
Lots in my modes tutorial. Nobody knows how far back the common one found in European and Chinese music goes, but my guess is that it started in central Asia.

Thank you. That looks like a good source for other pentatonic scales. In the lecture I linked to above, Leonard Bernstein demonstrates deriving a pentatonic scale with overtones and comes up with C, D, E, G, ~A/Bb. Your first pentatonic scale is C D F G A. Are there different methods for deriving pentatonic scales other than overtones or is F an overtone of C in a different tuning system (I assume Mr. Bernstein was using an equal temperament piano)?

Thank you for your input. It is interesting reading about music traditions from other cultures.
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Edited by teddeler, 17 Oct 2014, 03:54 PM.
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carbon


This is an interesting video demonstrating the pentatonic scale:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ne6tB2KiZuk

It's largely anecdotal, but fun and interesting none the less.
Edited by carbon, 17 Oct 2014, 04:14 PM.
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Jack Campin
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I mean, of course, people who use the western-european style of music in which the vast majority of all of the music I have heard all of my life

Until the mid-18th century it was considered absolutely normal for players and singers to use non-equal temperament and know they were doing it when they had equipment capable making the relevant distinctions - Quantz got flute makers to produce flutes with both D# and Eb keys at the bottom end, and that's the kind of flute he describes in his book (along with alternate fingerings that distinguish enharmonics elsewhere in the range). This is the sort of instrument that Mozart's flute concertos would have been played on; it was in no way obscure, experimental or only applied to music you've never heard of.

The same distinction was still being made in hardware by concertina makers in the late 19th century - these often had differently tuned Eb/D# and Ab/G#. Their intended repertoire was operatic melodies and violin solos. Basically the same repertoire as the early Italian ocarina repertoire except with wider range. These instruments are still being made and played by players who know what those keys are for in perfectly normal, mainstream music. Their "circle of fifths" isn't a circle.

Genuinely equal temperament wasn't possible for real instruments until about 1920, nobody had tuners accurate enough. In practice orchestral tuning in the decades before that (the orchestra used by Brahms, Tchaikovsky and Elgar, say) used a variety of tunings with 12 unequal semitones and some larger intervals (thirds and fifths) noticeably less pure than others - unless you fudged them on the fly, which was exactly what they always did, and still do. (Somebody once measured the actual frequencies used in a performance of one of Schoenberg's late atonal pieces, the String Trio I think. This is the sort of music, more than any other, where you'd expect all the semitones to be equal. But in practice the string players retuned to each other continuously from one moment to the next so the fifths came out consonant).

For music before the 18th century, it gets much more obvious that the "circle of fifths" doesn't fit. Renaissance vocal music (like Elizabethan madrigals or Byrd and Palestrina masses) gets sung in meantone; mediaeval music (ever since people started reviving it) gets done in Pythagorean tuning - this is not in any way subtle for a harpist.

Quote:
 
Are there different methods for deriving pentatonic scales other than overtones

There's no reason to believe overtones have anything to do with pentatonic scales. They are common in cultures that never use anything capable of producing audible overtones.
Edited by Jack Campin, 17 Oct 2014, 04:32 PM.
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teddeler
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carbon
17 Oct 2014, 04:12 PM
This is an interesting video demonstrating the pentatonic scale:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ne6tB2KiZuk

It's largely anecdotal, but fun and interesting none the less.
Cool! I love it!

Quote:
 
There's no reason to believe overtones have anything to do with pentatonic scales. They are common in cultures that never use anything capable of producing audible overtones.

Do we know how particular pentatonic scales were derived or is that lost to history? Is it just something naturally in us as Bobby McFerrin demonstrated?

Does the human voice produce overtones? Do ocarinas - or are overtones just produced by instruments involving something linear like a string or column of air?

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Jack Campin
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Overtones are irrelevant to the ocarina and extremely difficult to manipulate consciously with the human voice.

We have no idea how pentatonic scales arose. There are several different types (just looking at those with enough notes to span an octave for now, there are many others):

- equitonic-pentatonic (slendro) which does have a clear explanation - you can play the same tune transposed to any base pitch and it'll sound exactly the same, which allows for some neat dramatic effects in theatrical performance as you shift the tonal centre up and down. The principle is used consciously in southern African equitonic-heptatonic music (you can sing from any pitch in the scale). But that doesn't relate to overtones in any way, nor does it feature a consonant fifth (or any whole-number harmonic ratio).

- neutral-third pentatonic, used in some Middle Eastern music and maybe adopted in blues via Islamic West Africa. Again, not explicable by anything to do with overtones.

- semitonal pentatonic, like the Japanese yo-sen scale (also found in Africa). Makes sense to me for that to be a reduction of a 7-note scale to its basic elements as used in particular songs, but I have no historical evidence for that guess.

- anhemitonic pentatonic, like the one commonly used (in various modes) across Eurasia from Ireland to China. This makes sense as a development resulting from the adoption of harmony; as Benjamin Franklin seems to have have spotted first, music using those scales "harmonizes itself" - in a resonant acoustic or on a instrument like the harp with lots of sustain, you get "chord progressions" as sequential notes in the tune blend into each other.

McFerrin's video is great entertainment but musicologically and historically worthless.
Edited by Jack Campin, 17 Oct 2014, 07:06 PM.
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Harp Player
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If you want to hear some good examples of the pentatonic scale I suggest you look up NAF ( Native American Flute) music on youtube, as far as I know they are tuned to a pentatonic scale. Some of them are 5 note and some 7. I like to listen to them in limited quantities.
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Jack Campin
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The NAF folks deliberately adopted the European pentatonic scale to make their music more marketable in the 1970s. It doesn't feature significantly in older Native American music. So what you're hearing there is 100% determined by European tastes, it's not an independent development of the idea.
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carbon


What about the shakuhachi? My understanding is that the NAF owes its tuning to the shakuhachi...

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Ocarinadiva
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Play what makes you happy. - Achint

I think my friend Cornell made an excellent point during his improv workshop during the US Ocarina Festival that all the rules in music theory we know now are based on patterns that humans recognized collectively as music that just sounded good for some reason.
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teddeler
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Ocarinadiva
17 Oct 2014, 08:54 PM
I think my friend Cornell made an excellent point during his improv workshop during the US Ocarina Festival that all the rules in music theory we know now are based on patterns that humans recognized collectively as music that just sounded good for some reason.
I think he's getting close to a basic truth there.

Carbon, thanks for the Bobby McFerrin clip. I just watched the lecture/panel it is from: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0kCUss0g9Q
The clip was a nice demonstration of our cultural expectations and, possibly, universal expectations where harmonic scales are concerned. Interesting that it's the pentatonic we naturally expect.

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Jack Campin
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Quote:
 
all the rules in music theory we know now are based on patterns that humans recognized collectively as music that just sounded good for some reason.

Unfortunately for that theory, for every single rule or pattern you can think of, most human cultures have preferred music that doesn't fit it.

There are no musical universals whatever except that any sounds we recognize as musical have to be in the audible range.
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acox
Andy Cox
Jack Campin
17 Oct 2014, 08:46 PM
The NAF folks deliberately adopted the European pentatonic scale to make their music more marketable in the 1970s. It doesn't feature significantly in older Native American music. So what you're hearing there is 100% determined by European tastes, it's not an independent development of the idea.
this Jack I agree (but I thought "Dr. Paine's" meeting determining the scale was in the mid 50's), but the statement on nothing in music is universal is quite a comment which I'm sure sparks debate in some circles.
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Jack Campin
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Quote:
 
There are no musical universals whatever except that any sounds we recognize as musical have to be in the audible range.

I was being a bit too restrictive there. Evelyn Glennie is brilliant at playing music she can't hear at all. And, Harry Partch on his subcontrabass percussion instrument, the Marimba Eroica:

Quote:
 
In the right room acoustically, the Eroica is felt through the feet, against the belly, and, if one sits on the floor, it ripples through [one’s] bottom. It is very difficult to put on tape, and especially, on records, with any fidelity.

My perception of it was that it was more like getting belted in the chest by a soft rubber baseball bat. It was audible, but the ears only provided a small part of the experience.
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acox
Andy Cox
Jack Campin
18 Oct 2014, 12:58 AM
Quote:
 
There are no musical universals whatever except that any sounds we recognize as musical have to be in the audible range.

I was being a bit too restrictive there. Evelyn Glennie is brilliant at playing music she can't hear at all. And, Harry Partch on his subcontrabass percussion instrument, the Marimba Eroica:

Quote:
 
In the right room acoustically, the Eroica is felt through the feet, against the belly, and, if one sits on the floor, it ripples through [one’s] bottom. It is very difficult to put on tape, and especially, on records, with any fidelity.

My perception of it was that it was more like getting belted in the chest by a soft rubber baseball bat. It was audible, but the ears only provided a small part of the experience.
Good lord Jack,

ocarinas, ocarinas!!!!!!!!!!!!! Harry Partch was and continues to be a bit more I expected to be discussed here!

As for the senses: I was giving a demostration on the mbira daz vadzimu. One of the teens there was a beautiful young lady who was deaf, blind, and dumb. after I had finished my talk, I asked her mom if I might sit next to her and guide her hands on the mbira keys. The mother said yes.

The teen was sitting in a chair and held the mbira on her thighs. One lamellae was struck, then another, then a smile.. She held the instrument for a few moments and handed it back to me. As she could not speak or see me, her mom touched her and the girt touched her back. Her mom said that she was thanking me for hearing music---this was the best moment in my life.
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Pat Anderson
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More heat than light in this thread! Still, very interesting!

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Harp Player
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acox
 
As for the senses: I was giving a demostration on the mbira daz vadzimu. One of the teens there was a beautiful young lady who was deaf, blind, and dumb. after I had finished my talk, I asked her mom if I might sit next to her and guide her hands on the mbira keys. The mother said yes.


I did a search on that insturament, and I came up with the word Kalimba and finger piano is that what you are referring to?

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carbon


Music is a language and because of that it is only natural that we have unified understandings. There are some cross cultural expectations, but if someone looks for irregularities or ambiguities, they're always easy enough to find. There's no harm in speaking in generalities when having a general conversation.

Music theory is basically a set of parameters for a given type of music. It is a descriptor. We can talk about intonation. We can say "A" or we can say 440 or 442 or 415 or not say A at all and simply discuss frequencies. We have language to label, define, and classify. While some music seeks to break convention, eventually it will be absorbed into the lexicon in some way or another. The statement about the rules of music theory is true, because we are always adding to those rules and creating new classifications. The fact that we can have this discussion and use descriptive terms makes any criticism a moot point. Even if we didn't have terms, rest assured that eventually the "avant garde" would be dissected, classified, and labeled.

One thing humans have in common is that we are very good at pattern recognition and use it for even the most minute details.

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acox
Andy Cox
Pat Anderson
18 Oct 2014, 05:45 AM
More heat than light in this thread! Still, very interesting!

Oh no, absolutely no "heat" intended at all, with my comments or I'm sure others. I've learned and been helped by so many of you folk especially Jack. so again absolutely no heat....there are times that some of you get over my head very quickly and being an old man, I will ask a question, and you all are willing and do try to simplify the question. I did think mentioning Harry Partch on an ocarina forum was funny or very sophisticated--I didn't know which one, but as I have just said, I'm not understanding it all!

as for the mbira. the mbira is one the names for numerous tongued instruments. The dza vadzimu is the "huru" or "big" one, meaning the most developed and used for complex musical scores in Zimbabwe.

a beautiful day here in Souith Carolina. Time for jumping on the bike with drawing pad, ocarina and a bottle of water, a fun day . Hope all of you have one too.
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Jack Campin
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Opener of Catfood Tins

"carbon"'s table in post #6 above is very clear and answers the OP's question pretty well. But it's only describing one kind of music, a very small corner of the range of possibilities that humans have explored, and there is no way it is ever going to be unified in some kind of grand theory that also incorporates Maori traditional music and Church of England bellringing.
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Harp Player
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Triple Ocarinist
I too have found this thread to be very interesting and informative. Although I don't have a clue as to what Harry Patch has to do with music even after looking him up on Wikipedia as his seems to me more famous for being old than anything else. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Patch

Too be honest I don't worry too much about the technical terms used in music. My theory is that if it sounds right then it is right, if it don't sound quite right chances are no one will notice, and I will try something a bit different next time.
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