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Beginners Introduction to the Transverse Ocarina; Can I has okareena?
Topic Started: 14 May 2011, 09:47 AM (21,095 Views)
Krešimir Cindrić


I don't think a correct road to neutrality is avoiding saying "this is good" or "this is bad" completely. It makes for a dry list of available products, and we already have much more than with the Ocarina Catalog, so there is no point in trying to create another of those.

Instead, I suggest giving out references and turning points like "this is good" into "this is good according to many reviews [1], [2], [3]... *continue list of links*", or "this is bad according to... [6], [7]..." etc...


Also, I suggest splitting this discussion into a "discussion thread".
Edited by Krešimir Cindrić, 17 May 2011, 04:54 PM.
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crumpy
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very very crumpy
Rieko, I don't want to be part of such bickering either but when I'm accused of things that simply aren't true I feel that I need to defend myself, as do most.

As for most of the things you have accused me of in this last post... honestly it's just rubbish. I'm quite amazed reading most of it to be honest, it's so far from the truth.

But hey, it's your opinion and you are entitled it. I'm not going to discuss it any further really.
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CosmicWaves
Inline Ocarinist
Krešimir Cindrić
17 May 2011, 04:52 PM
I don't think a correct road to neutrality is avoiding saying "this is good" or "this is bad" completely. It makes for a dry list of available products, and we already have much more than with the Ocarina Catalog, so there is no point in trying to create another of those.

Instead, I suggest giving out references and turning points like "this is good" into "this is good according to many reviews [1], [2], [3]... *continue list of links*", or "this is bad according to... [6], [7]..." etc...


Also, I suggest splitting this discussion into a "discussion thread".
I completely agree Kres on both Points. Excellent Post.
(Are we close enough after my few weeks here that I can call you that, or do we need to have a barbeque first? :rofl: )

@Crumpy, I still think its an excellent start for a rough draft, and you are moving in the right direction. I can also see why you would want to make it a community guide, as this could mean that it would become something very comprehensive down the road, especially if others decide to pitch in and help you. I think that Reikokuna has a great idea about including citations, but I also think good things come with time, Its unreasonable for people to expect your guide to be perfect by tommorow :) I think an excellent idea would be to request the help of others in searching the archive for posts relevant to citing the guide. I might see what I can do for you in that respect when I have the time. Good Luck and Take your time! Also, I hope you are having fun with it!
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Ocarinadiva
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Play what makes you happy. - Achint

Here is some additional feedback as well :

1. The guide mixes fact and opinions (even if they are supposedly representative of the board). Clear labeling/sectioning would be a very nice inclusion.

2. The guide excludes readily available brands from the list while including others that are not.

3. The guide is supposedly represents a community but contains neither citations nor a stated metric for inclusion of a given opinion.

IMO, when presenting information that is supposed to be representative of a community, the goal should be to present the data as neutrally as possible, and include citations at every opportunity, otherwise it just seems arbitrary.
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Cavalier
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Always look on the bright side of life.
Ocarinadiva
17 May 2011, 04:14 PM
Here are some excerpts that, as of now, still contain biased language :


The above quotes corrupt your guide's neutral point of view and introduce bias. Whether or not I personally agree with any of the statements above makes no difference. Right now, from those quotes alone, your guide still contains bias.

Quote:
 
* Focalink/Stien/FYpottery - TON thread for Focalink - Very popular and respected Asian 12-hole ocarinas, single and multi-chambered.
Focalink is very popular and respected by the community, this is a fact.
Quote:
 
* Gosselink - TON thread for Oliver Gosselink ocarinas - French maker Oliver Gosselink makes Highly regarded uniquely glazed single chambered ocarinas and 'bird' ocarinas.
I don't think gosselinks are "Highly" regarded. He could say they are known for their creative glazes though.
Quote:
 
* Hind - TON thread for Hind ocarinas 1 - TON thread for Hind ocarinas 2 - American wooden ocarinas. Single and Multi-chambered, both inline and transverse style. Beautifully crafted, unique sounding ocarinas requiring soft breath and producing a sound of low volume.
This is biased. I agree. I don't get bothered by it at all.
Quote:
 
* Maparam - TON thread for Maparam ocarinas - Very highly rated ocarinas no longer in production. Only available second hand. Can fetch very high prices in the second hand market.
This is not biased. Our community DOES in fact rate Maparams very highly.
Quote:
 
Another design is the inline ocarina, which has a fingering system very similar to the transverse ocarinas. Note worthy makers are Hind and Mountain ocarinas.

Some are biased, some are not.
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Ocarinadiva
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Play what makes you happy. - Achint

@CAV
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crumpy
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very very crumpy
Ok, there was a whole lot of negativity, pointless bickering and hate going on in the thread so I have mentally taken a couple of steps back to try and view it from a better perspective. This gave me a bit more clarity in responding to the questions asked of me, and the feedback given to me.

I wanted to be thorough and clear up as much as I could with one post. Having done that I make the following points.



I am going to cut my activity in this thread drastically. I have no more interest in these circling arguments. I will however post updates and respond to constructive feedback.



I never intended (nor claimed) this to be neutral at any point and I will not make it so. Please stop referencing neutrality, it is irrelevant. I am not going to nueter the post. If the communities opinion is a biased one, it will be included none the less.



This is designed to be factual. That includes facts about common community opinion. If that opinion is a biased one then so be it, that is for the individual to judge and do with what they will. pretty much all new members seek this opinion as it is more educated than their own. If you do not agree with the communities opinion then so be it.



I want to point out the only edits I have made I so far are to remove the 'common opinions' to make way for the poll results (which (mostly) cannot be questioned) and add an additional sentence about encouraging research. these were made right near the beginning of discussions in this thread. I posted stating I'd made some updates shortly after this. I have been making minor grammer and spelling corrections at various points though.



Thank you for finally coming back with some feedback that I can work with, instead of ignoring my requests that you justify your accusations of me with some examples. I think you'll agree this is much more beneficial than simply having a go at me.



I Have looked again at the short brand descriptions. I feel from my observations that they are accurate in depicting common opinion. Sure, one person may disagree with one or two, another person may agree with them both but disagree with another. Overall large portions would agree with most of the statements.

However, that is obviously not enough. The 'common opinions' I originally stated in the "Points to consider for beginner purchase" section, were accurate (as backed by the recent polls) yet could not be proven to be such with out either extensive and totally impractical referencing or by being replaced with the polls.

Unfortunately, when it comes to the these brand descriptions, it would be next to impossible to confirm or prove them regardless of whether it is right or not. Try quantifying "beautifully crafted". I'm not going to remove these descriptions (I may tweak them, they were never 'finished') but the best solution I see is to make a statement at the beginning of that section along the lines off:

"The following statements about these brands are not, and never were, necessarily a reflection of the views held by the members on this board".

Is this legal document like statement and pre-claimer correct in it's statement about these not being the most common opinions of community? I don't think so.
Is it Massively overkill? Yes indeed.
Is it required by the hugely, super-humanly pedantic nature of certain members of this board? Oh yes indeed.



@Ocarinadiva. To address your specific feedback.

"1. The guide mixes fact and opinions (even if they are supposedly representative of the board). Clear labeling/sectioning would be a very nice inclusion."
------See above.

"2. The guide excludes readily available brands from the list while including others that are not."
------The purpose of the list isn't to list every brand/maker in existence these boards have a section for that already. The purpose of the list is to, list the most popular and note worthy brands into a compact and coherent space with full linkage (that's a real word, it's in the Oxcrump dictionary). The brands listed there are the most popular and note worthy brands. that does not suggest that any included are not of quality or decent standered. However, just to be on the safe side I will attach a statement along the lines of:

The purpose is to list the most popular and note worthy brands, it does not mean that the brands not mentioned here are of inferior quality or sub-par standards in any way.

I plan to add Spencer to the list of brands, if there are any others in particular that people feel should be included I will consider them.

"3. The guide is supposedly represents a community but contains neither citations nor a stated metric for inclusion of a given opinion."
-----The 'common opinions' of the community have been replaced with the polls which show the same thing. Only this time, straight from the horses mouth. I think these polls are reliable enough.

Ironically the results show no change in what I had stated the first time around.

Any others have been dealt with above. Any I have missed at this point will be spotted when I make my final edit and will receive the same treatment.




Lastly, I will later make a large final edit including the following:

  • all of the above
  • I plan to add Spencer to the list of brands, if there are any others in particular that people feel should be included I will consider them.
  • More mention of plastic ocarinas
  • I will also integrate the polls at a later date


I plan to have the whole contents of this thread removed and placed in the kiln. I don't want to scare off the new people with all the aggression and negativity that has been displayed here.


EDIT:missing word

Edited by crumpy, 18 May 2011, 12:54 PM.
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Ocarinadiva
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Play what makes you happy. - Achint

It's funny that you lead with a complaint about negativity, bickering, and hate and then fail to avoid falling right into the same pattern.

Whatever the case, I think I'll wait until you think you're finished before providing any additional feedback.
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spencersocarinas
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ocarina maker

I mentioned something to this effect in a similar thread, but I'll post here too. While my feelings would never be hurt for not being included in something like this, I think the list should at least include only ocarinas that are actually available for purchase. It seems odd to include Gosselink ocarinas, for example, which are not easily (if at all) obtainable, while excluding brands that are consistently available and easy to purchase.

That is the only advice I would give.

Spencer
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crumpy
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very very crumpy
Thanks spencer.

Gosselink ocarinas are in fact readily available. He does not have an online shop at the current time but they can be bought on ebay, or directly from Oliver Gosselink by email or face to face if your in france (or at an ocarina festival).

The only non-available (at least brand-new) ocarinas in the list are Maparam and given their status and reputation, I consider them worth note.

Incase you missed it, I will be including Spencer ocarinas in the list by the way.
Sorry about the slow progress with this too. I've been a little busier recently.
Edited by crumpy, 23 May 2011, 10:45 PM.
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TuxDotKing
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king@tux:~# man ocarina
I really sometimes wonder whether I come here for the ocarina discussions or the flame wars. :?

Don't get me wrong, I love the community, but it's surprising sometimes how such heated debates and schisms can result from such a somewhat obscure instrument. :whistle:


Back on topic... I'm looking to get a transverse ocarina, preferably ceramic, and I want a 'smoother', purer sound texture and something with a softer volume than my Mountain inlines (though being softer than an MO probably doesn't take much :shrug: ). Would I be correct in saying that a Focalink AC has the sort of 'smooth, pure' texture that I want?

EDIT: Just watched a couple of videos of it, it seems that it's definitely what I'm looking for. :)
Edited by TuxDotKing, 30 May 2011, 02:49 AM.
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crumpy
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very very crumpy
Plastic ocarinas - Please vote and share your veiws. Thank you


Last poll for the post now, I would appreciate your views. many thanks.
Edited by crumpy, 11 Jun 2011, 05:58 PM.
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Endalion
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Triple Ocarinist x 3
Thomann is a German music store, not French. Perhaps a mod or Crumpy could fix the OP?
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Dazzo
Pendant Ocarinist
Very good job )
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Frozen
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The Black Knight
Finally found the time to read through the whole guide, and I think it's very good for beginners to get started.
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Dkgoose
Beginner
I got a 6 home for Christmas and bought a Peruvian 8 hole at a Renaissance faire but there's very little tabs for songs, son purchased a cheap 12 hole on Amazon and then tried that but doesn't seem great for playing so I ordered one from songbird, are the12 holes a lot harder than the 6 hole? Some of the finger placements just seem complicated, but I haven't played it a lot

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Dodo
Beginner
I actually find 12-hole easier since it's a bit more intuitive. It is more similar to other woodwind instruments (although not exactly the same). To me it's a bit more systemic so it's easier for me to play using sheet music or to improvise.
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BigC
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When you're STL, You're STL 4 Life!!!

12 hole ocarinas are super easy for me to play.
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Lizpen
Beginner
This post was very informative and worth the long read! I copied down a lot of the links and have saved them to my toolbar for future perusing. A few of the pics no longer show up but I could do a quick google search to understand. Thanks!
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