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Beginners Introduction to the Transverse Ocarina; Can I has okareena?
Topic Started: 14 May 2011, 09:47 AM (22,600 Views)
crumpy
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very very crumpy
Almost ready to be called complete (I will update whenever I can though)

Plastic ocarinas - Please vote and share your veiws. Thank you





This is a sort of database or guide to answer many of the questions potential new players may have like, what good ocarinas are there? What is a good beginners instrument? What do certain terms mean? What is the difference between makes and models in playing and sound?

I have attempted to combine facts about transverse ocarinas with the common views and popular opinion of the community (check the Survey/Polls section)

I will continue to edit this post appropriately. Let me know if you can think of anything else that might be useful here.



Quick note
This is a guide about Transverse ocarinas, a specific evolution of globular flute, however there are other styles of globular flutes often called ocarinas too. You may find these just as appealing.

Many manufacturers also make Pendant ocarinas. These are mostly meant to be worn around the neck, most often using four to six holes and a clever compact fingering system.

Another design is the inline ocarina, which has a fingering system very similar to the transverse ocarinas. A coupe of Note worthy makers are of Inline ocarinas are Hind and Mountain ocarinas.




Contents


  • 1 - A Short History

  • 2 - Different Styles & Designs
    • 2.1 - Pitch Names
    • 2.2 - Fingering Systems
    • 2.3 - Subholes & Split holes
    • 2.4 - Types
    • 2.5 - Plastic Ocarinas
    • 2.6 - Multi-chambered ocarinas

  • 3.0 - Tabs Vs Sheet Music

  • 4.0 - Buying an ocarina

    • 4.1 - Points to consider for beginner purchase
    • 4.2 - Popular Brands
    • 4.3 - Ocarina Shops
    • 4.4 - Beginners ocarina survey

  • 5.0 - Other Links and Resources





1 - A Short History

A short history




2 - Different Styles & Designs


2.1 - Pitch Names

Pitch Names



2.2 - Fingering Systems

Fingering Systems



2.3 - Subholes & Split holes

Subholes& Split holes



2.4 - Types

Types



2.5 - Plastic Ocarinas

Plastic Ocarinas



2.6 - Multi-chambered ocarinas

multi-chambered ocarinas




3.0 - Tabs Vs Sheet Music

Tabs Vs Sheet Music




4.0 - Buying an ocarina


4.1 - Points to consider for beginner purchase

Points to consider for beginner purchase



4.2 - Popular Brands

Popular Brands



4.3 - Ocarina Shops

Ocarina Shops


4.4 - Beginners ocarina survey

Beginners ocarina survey





5.0 - Other Links and Resources

Links and Resources



I can has Okareena?

I can has Okareena?



I hope someone might find this helpful.


Edited by crumpy, 22 Jul 2011, 12:13 AM.
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Jhaemes
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wow

I like it.

Perhaps a plastic vs clay section? Listing the good plastics, like Zin, Noble and Focalink and then possibly listing some of the awful ones, like those dadi and "stagg" ones.
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Sherb
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Nyanyanyanyanya

A very good guide.

Still needs work of course, but it's very comprehensive.

I'll pin this up.
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Krešimir Cindrić


It has my seal of approval.

Posted Image
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crumpy
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very very crumpy
Sherb
14 May 2011, 09:56 AM
A very good guide.

Still needs work of course, but it's very comprehensive.

I'll pin this up.
Awesome sauce.

If anyone has any input/suggestions or anything just shoot..

Kresimir
 
It has my seal of approval.

Posted Image


Haha! awesome.

EDIT: @Jheames, cool, I'll look into it.

Edited by crumpy, 14 May 2011, 10:11 AM.
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Ocarinette
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Lone French ocarinist
Awesome work Crumpy!
You could also link Diva's ocarina catalog somewhere (I don't think I saw it in your post)
:)
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subakuryu
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INCOMING!!!
Fantastic guide, crumpy!

Do you think you could also post this guide of yours on the octalk forums as well? I'd love to sticky it there.
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CosmicWaves
Inline Ocarinist
Sweet guide man! I don't know where you got the fingering chart, but that's the most intuitive chart I've seen thus far. good work.
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Ocarinadiva
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Play what makes you happy. - Achint

I can see a few issues:

1. Popular Brands

This section seems to give an unfair advantage to some ocarina makers over others and introduces brand bias both through inclusion and through commentary ("worthy makers" needlessly gives the impression that makers not listed are somehow unworthy.)

Also, Woodsound is from Korea.

2. Ocarina Shops

Once again, certain shops are given an unfair advantage over unlisted shops.

3. What to consider for beginner purchase

The main problem here is serious brand bias. Noble is seldom recommended to beginners and though Focalink is often recommended, those aren't the only ones people recommend and definitely not the only beginner friendly ocarinas available. If this guide is to be something representative of the community and not of your own opinions, then you will probably want to avoid making brand suggestions of any ocarina here and instead provide some common questions the shopper should be able to answer, as well as a guide on how to use the "search" feature.

Quote:
 
TNG also offer well priced multi-chambered ocarinas but are usually considered of inferior quality.


This kind of commentary is spreading misinformation. You'll find that people that actually own TNG design multi-chamber ocarinas tend to prefer them over other brands. Whatever the case, I don't think that bias either for or against any specific brand of ocarinas belongs in a shopping guide for beginners.

IMO, if you want to include brand suggestions and commentaries, you should write from your first hand experiences rather than using debatable 2nd hand information or trying to represent the changing opinions of an evolving community. If I were writing a definitive intro to the ocarina, I wouldn't list any brands or specific ocarinas, and instead would focus on factual characteristics. The "which ocarina should I get" threads would be much more helpful and interesting if people had a better idea of the characteristics they are looking for in an ocarina.
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Achint
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Fat Mouse >^_^<

Yea it's a great guide overall but I will agree with Cris.

Obviously you weren't biased while writing this, but to a beginner who reads it, it might come off as such. So I would suggest adding as many ocarina makers/retailers as are possible and actually removing the shop section. I say this because most of the makers have their own websites where the ocarinas can be bought or else they can be looked for on ebay.

If there are those who want to know local stores which sell ocarinas there's always the regional section of the forum to help them. I think you can put in a note into the guide which says to look for the regional stuff within the regional section.

Err... yea, just my 2 cents =P
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crumpy
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very very crumpy
Cool, thanks for the feedback guys i'll make changes soon.

I want to say again, that this isn't based on my opinions but on the most commonly expressed views on the board. I've spent upwards of 2-3 hours a day on this board reading new and old posts and this is based on what I have observed. The only part I decided to overwrite common opinion was the tab vs music part simply because the most common opinion/view is pretty mis-informed on that subject.

As for the makers list, there are endless streams of makers out there and I'm not making a list of them all. the line needs to be drawn somewhere, I'm simply not going to include obscure/little known about makers.

Are there any note worthy brands/shops that you think this has neglected? or represented unfairly? let me know so I can update it.

@suba, sure thing. I'll just wait till it's a little ironed out first though.



EDIT:
I might hold a few polls and replace some of the content in this thread with the results.
Edited by crumpy, 15 May 2011, 08:59 AM.
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Ocarinadiva
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Play what makes you happy. - Achint

Commonly expressed views do not necessarily make them accurate. Many people have chosen, like you, to simply regurgitate 2nd hand information rather than stick their own firsthand experiences.

If this "guide" is based upon the supposed opinions of the community, then you should represent all of the opinions of the community. If you will not or cannot do this, then you should not represent your guide as anything but your own opinion. TON is a diverse place and if you want your guide to represent TON, then it should demonstrate our diversity. In its current form, I do not think it does this adequately.
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reikokuna
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Ocarinadiva
15 May 2011, 07:37 AM
Commonly expressed views do not necessarily make them accurate. Many people have chosen, like you, to simply regurgitate 2nd hand information rather than stick their own firsthand experiences.
I agree.

Though the intention behind the creation of this guide, is good, I think it may be somewhat destructive to only present certain ideas and brands. I think "guides", especially ones that are supposed to be the informative kind, should present most (if not, all that is possible) available information at hand...and allow the reader the independence and freedom of deriving own opinions and decisions from unbiased factual information.

The author of the text could insert their own opinion, or express what has been found to be the most "common" views...but this needs to be clearly stated.

I don't like the idea of hand picked views, being presented as if they are absolutes.

As it is now, it feels limiting.

Beginners mostly can't help wanting/needing a convenient guide...but depending on where they look, information absorbed from just one guide, might be thought of as a magical all-in-one cure all for lack of knowledge.

---
Since you've been spending so much time reading through information derived from/presented within discussions in the past, it would be nice if you would link to the particular sections from where you gathered particular information you present, especially if this is leaning more towards just one side.

That way, even if you present things from what you gathered through views that you've read, the third party reading your guide can go directly to the source from which you have summarized your information. Not as limiting if done in this way.

---
I personally do appreciate your efforts, but I think, when giving introductions, especially to beginners...one should be extra mindful.

EDIT: Changed one adjective. =3=
Edited by reikokuna, 15 May 2011, 08:33 AM.
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crumpy
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very very crumpy
Well, I said I will make changes. I'm not disagreeing with the things that have been said, it definately needs work.

The first line of my post reads "Cool, thanks for the feedback guys i'll make changes soon."

All I said in my last post is that I'll make changes soon, that I'm not going to include every maker in the list of popular brands, and also point out that most of it isn't based on my opinion. The only reason I made that last point is because it had been suggested otherwise.

I agree the beginner purchases part needs to be re-worked heavily. I don't agree with every point you raised to illustrate this Chris but as a whole you are right. If it's going to suggest certain brands it needs to be a lot more thorough and comprehensive on the subject, making sure to take into consideration many brands.


reikokuna
15 May 2011, 08:31 AM
Since you've been spending so much time reading through information derived from/presented within discussions in the past, it would be nice if you would link to the particular sections from where you gathered particular information you present, especially if this is leaning more towards just one side.
I think as much as this would help for the sole purpose of validating the things I type it would be massively impractical and a scary amount of work for me. There isn't just one or two discussions that would need to be referenced, I'd practically have to reference the whole history of TON. Your post is helpful though, thanks for your feedback

CosmicWaves
14 May 2011, 11:54 PM
Sweet guide man! I don't know where you got the fingering chart, but that's the most intuitive chart I've seen thus far. good work.
Did you mean the 12 hole one? I made that for myself a little while back, glad you like it.

The Italian one was made by Kresimir I believe, It's also very good. Very thorough, it has loads of useful info in it considering it's just a fingering chart lol
Edited by crumpy, 15 May 2011, 09:38 AM.
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reikokuna
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crumpy
15 May 2011, 08:36 AM

reikokuna
15 May 2011, 08:31 AM
Since you've been spending so much time reading through information derived from/presented within discussions in the past, it would be nice if you would link to the particular sections from where you gathered particular information you present, especially if this is leaning more towards just one side.
I think as much as this would help for the sole purpose of validating the things I type it would be massively impractical and a scary amount of work for me. There isn't just one or two discussions that would need to be referenced, I'd practically have to reference the whole history of TON lol
You did imply that most of the information from your guide are general views that have been repeated over and over again. Making reference of at least one or two that elaborates or speaks more than the summarized version is more than enough to encourage further reading. There is no need to feel like you need to reference every single repetition of an idea. Just that if what is being said reflects a strong opinion (*or one that presents something as a fact*), that the writer disowns and labels to have been gathered from somewhere...it would be nice if we can find out where that somewhere is?

Ex. The part where you said Noble ocarinas are designed to be played in Ensembles...where did you get that information? I surely would like to know, because I had not previously had that knowledge...and so I want to know if that has a sound basis, or if that is an assumption. Seems to me, ocarinas in general were encouraged to be played in ensembles, especially in the Italian tradition...so I don't know if you have a specific entry somewhere, where that is mentioned...that you felt the need that it was vital to state. o__O

EDIT: added statement enclosed in * *
Edited by reikokuna, 15 May 2011, 09:48 AM.
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crumpy
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very very crumpy
The thing is if i have to find a quote for every single point made in the post then it wouldn't be one or two. And even if I do use one or two quotes im not sure that showing one example where a person has said something would really be any validation that it is a popular view.

I'm not going to back up every point I make in the post with a quote but if there are any you want me to clear up I'll make an effort too.

As for the one you just brought up about Noble ocarinas, I said "Designed as with performance and ensembles in mind" to be exact. Thanks for spotting that. That is an assumption I've made based on the fact that pretty much every time I have seen anything to do with noble ocarinas it is performance or ensemble related, they have an official noble ensemble band that represents them etc. But it is an assumption that shouldn't have slipped in there so I will remove it.

EDIT: anyway, I'm editing it so give me a chance to do that, unless you spot something new.
Edited by crumpy, 15 May 2011, 10:41 AM.
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Krešimir Cindrić


I don't see a problem with those things. Everything is linked to other topics of TON and readers are encouraged to do some research on their own before making a purchase. These are not Crumpy's preferences, everything has a reference to the appropriate thread on TON. Following that logic, you could say Wikipedia is biased and unfair.

I think it is important to add a link to OFFICIAL Reviews database, which is missing at the moment. And I would add a link to Regional Focus section to include less known, smaller makers.

Also, ocarina history part is painfully short and more or less useless. I think it is better to add links to Ocarina History section.

Also, the most important link of all times is missing \(°o°)/
http://theocarinanetwork.com/topic/6821972
(a bit of shameless self-plugging here ;) )
Edited by Krešimir Cindrić, 15 May 2011, 12:11 PM.
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crumpy
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very very crumpy
Cheers Kresimir

I'm trying to be us fair as I possibly can but its hard. For example, I don't want to recommend something that has a shady reputation or that people have suggested is poor, but if I don't it seems to anger some because I'm 'discriminating' against it. And I can't just say it's my opinion and I am allowed to share it, because my opinion is second hand and lacks credibility whether it is right or not.

So I have come to what I think is the best possible solution. I will not make any specific recommendations. Instead, I will hold a very thorough poll for the members to share their opinions on the matter. I will link it to the guide and post a print screen of the results once it has got quite a few votes.

I'll clearly state that the results are nothing more than the combination of peoples opinion from this board which could be influenced by many things including how common an ocarina is or how easy it is to buy. I will make it clear that this is not a definitive be all and end all answer, but a safe indication of what is the majority opinion. Something that can give them an indication of where to start looking.
-----

@ Kres, The practicing list guide you made (which is awesome) was actually on my list of things to add and I edited the post to link the Review section earlier, but I didn't link the database because I wasn't sure if it was still being kept up to date? (I found some deadlinks in it a while back) Maybe I'll link it anyway.

Regional focus section is a good shout too, I'll include that. I was planning to have a look around for any other guides and stuff too.

Keep the recommendations and criticisms coming peeps

CLICK BELOW TO VOTE

What would you consider to be a good beginners ocarina for a complete noob?

What about a double ocarina?

--------

EDIT:
I'm still editing the post. It's a bit messy. But mostly it's how it is going to stay now.

I'm going to tidy it up. Link some other things in and make a short part about plastic ocarinas.

If anybody has any extra suggestions for the shop section post them here.

thanks

Edited by crumpy, 15 May 2011, 02:24 PM.
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Ocarinadiva
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Play what makes you happy. - Achint

I like the changes you've made so far :thumbsup:

I'm interested to see how the community recommendations section turns out. :)
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reikokuna
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Krešimir Cindrić
15 May 2011, 12:08 PM
I don't see a problem with those things. Everything is linked to other topics of TON and readers are encouraged to do some research on their own before making a purchase. These are not Crumpy's preferences, everything has a reference to the appropriate thread on TON. Following that logic, you could say Wikipedia is biased and unfair.

[...]
Somewhat off topic post: Wikipedia entries are encouraged to include at least one or two (or a few) references :) If a part of a Wiki article appears to be presenting facts, but holds no (sound) reference, you are forewarned about the credibility of the particular statement/article.

My problem was mostly about Crumpy's preferences. Yes, they are his preference, to an extent. He chose what he believed to be the majority opinion, and what should and should not be included. That in itself, (sifting through and presenting what is believed to be majority opinion, for the good intention of serving others) isn't the whole issue (personally). It is an issue when his own personal assumptions become mixed in with the presented majority opinion, without making note of that.

---
Again, Crumpy, I am not saying you HAVE to, on every single post. That's your call if you feel like you have to go through that. I'm just saying, that for certain opinions, it would be nice if references are made to support that.

---
I am glad the part about Noble "Designed as with performance and ensembles in mind" has been corrected. I wanted to know if that were really so, because I was curious.

..and that if that were indeed so, it would have been an interesting tidbit...but then it turns out it isn't.
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crumpy
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very very crumpy
reikokuna
15 May 2011, 07:22 PM
It is an issue when his own personal assumptions become mixed in with the presented majority opinion, without making note of that.
This never happend at any point.

Quote:
 
Again, Crumpy, I am not saying you HAVE to, on every single post. That's your call if you feel like you have to go through that. I'm just saying, that for certain opinions, it would be nice if references are made to support that

Well that's effectively what I am doing with the polls, except I'm collating all views into one reference. At this point, I prefer my solution.
Edited by crumpy, 15 May 2011, 07:45 PM.
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reikokuna
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crumpy
15 May 2011, 07:45 PM
reikokuna
15 May 2011, 07:22 PM
It is an issue when his own personal assumptions become mixed in with the presented majority opinion, without making note of that.
This never happend at any point.
Case in point: Assumption about Noble Ocarinas. That's at least one instance. It's no longer relevant because you have corrected it.

So yes, it has happened at least once, at some point :)
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crumpy
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very very crumpy
reikokuna
15 May 2011, 07:58 PM
crumpy
15 May 2011, 07:45 PM
reikokuna
15 May 2011, 07:22 PM
It is an issue when his own personal assumptions become mixed in with the presented majority opinion, without making note of that.
This never happend at any point.
Case in point: Assumption about Noble Ocarinas. That's at least one instance. It's no longer relevant because you have corrected it.

So yes, it has happened at least once, at some point :)
My mistake. When you said 'mixed in with majority opinion', I thought that was actually what you meant.

I got a fact wrong. I didn't start mixing my opinion and preferences into the guide which is what you were suggesting.
Edited by crumpy, 16 May 2011, 11:11 AM.
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CosmicWaves
Inline Ocarinist
To be honest, I don't think that bias is as big an issue as people are making it with this guide. From what I can tell, the information in this guide is basically just a condensation of the general opinion on this board. and no offense to Ocarina Diva, because you are an excellent ocarinist and seem like a very nice person, But it seems to me that you have your own personal ocarina preference, and you are obviously championing that preference (not that there is anything wrong with that).

And if there is some inherent bias, shouldn't that be an obvious conclusion for a reader to make anyways? By nature, a guide cannot be completely impartial, and I feel like anyone who takes a guide for gospel is not being intelligent about their research anyways. I've never been a fan of guides that attempt to be overly p.c. because they end up seeming convoluted : " Its been my experience that most people like this ocarina, but Some people like this other one, and a third group thinks its alright as long as its played upside down, but my friend hates both..."

But I've been wrong in the past, so it wouldn't suprise me if I'm wrong again :)

@ Crumpy, yeah I meant the 12 hole finger chart, I really like the layout of it!
Edited by CosmicWaves, 15 May 2011, 10:51 PM.
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Ocarinadiva
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CosmicWaves
15 May 2011, 10:50 PM
But it seems to me that you have your own personal ocarina preference, and you are obviously championing that preference (not that there is anything wrong with that).
Huh? I'm not championing ANY preference. I am actually against ANY brand recommendations in ANY guide that pretends to be representative of the community. If I am championing anything, it is diversity.

TBH, the last thing I want anyone to do is to simply buy an ocarina that I like because I like it. I'd rather people become informed consumers and find the ocarina that best suits their needs.
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Yoshi
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Triple Ocarinist
Ocarinadiva
15 May 2011, 11:47 PM
CosmicWaves
15 May 2011, 10:50 PM
But it seems to me that you have your own personal ocarina preference, and you are obviously championing that preference (not that there is anything wrong with that).
Huh? I'm not championing ANY preference. I am actually against ANY brand recommendations in ANY guide that pretends to be representative of the community. If I am championing anything, it is diversity.

TBH, the last thing I want anyone to do is to simply buy an ocarina that I like because I like it. I'd rather people become informed consumers and find the ocarina that best suits their needs.
These are my thoughts exactly. There definitely needs to be more diversity around here instead of everyone buying something just because someone else did. Everyone needs to experiment, and find out what it is they want and like in an ocarina.
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CosmicWaves
Inline Ocarinist
Yoshi
16 May 2011, 12:04 AM
Ocarinadiva
15 May 2011, 11:47 PM
CosmicWaves
15 May 2011, 10:50 PM
But it seems to me that you have your own personal ocarina preference, and you are obviously championing that preference (not that there is anything wrong with that).
Huh? I'm not championing ANY preference. I am actually against ANY brand recommendations in ANY guide that pretends to be representative of the community. If I am championing anything, it is diversity.

TBH, the last thing I want anyone to do is to simply buy an ocarina that I like because I like it. I'd rather people become informed consumers and find the ocarina that best suits their needs.
These are my thoughts exactly. There definitely needs to be more diversity around here instead of everyone buying something just because someone else did. Everyone needs to experiment, and find out what it is they want and like in an ocarina.
I don't disagree at all. diversity= interesting=good. but at the same time, its important to see the value in a beginner buying a nice, reliable/trustworthy product and that's what a guide is good for.

@ OcarinaDiva Respectfully, you seem to take offense at the fact that so many people on this board like a specific company, but when advising a beginner, it simply makes sense to recomend the company that gives the most bang for the buck. if people find they like the ocarina, they can move on to a less mainstream ocarina with their next purchase. Maybe my perspective is a bit utilitarian, but that's how I see it. (when buying a guitar, there are some smaller companies that offer unique exciting products, but these are not a sure thing. Thus when advising a beginner on what guitar to buy, I would recomend a Staple company like Alvarez, Martin... etc.) I just feel like a beginner should always learn on a reliable instrument, and this tends not to allow for much variety by necessity. There is a reason most people buy a Yamaha or Kawaii for their first piano.

I will conceed that it would probably be better if the guide was written in a first person voice though. Then there is no chance of confusing its level of impartiality. If that was your point all along, then it previously escaped me and I apologize.
Edited by CosmicWaves, 16 May 2011, 03:05 AM.
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Ocarinadiva
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Play what makes you happy. - Achint

CosmicWaves
16 May 2011, 02:48 AM
@ OcarinaDiva Respectfully, you seem to take offense at the fact that so many people on this board like a specific company,
Adding "respectfully" to the beginning of a sentence doesn't somehow make insulting a person ok. In the future, if you think you might need to add "respectfully" to beginning of a sentence, you might want to rethink what you're trying to say. I don't have a problem with ANY brand of ocarinas, though I do like some ocarinas more than others. Regarding the company that I supposedly don't like people liking, I own more of their ocarinas than most members here. Off the top of my head, I think I have at least 15 or so, including their premium set of 7 ocarinas.

Quote:
 
when advising a beginner, it simply makes sense to recomend the company that gives the most bang for the buck.


I disagree. I think it makes sense to give the absolute best recommendation based upon the person asking, not upon my own preferences. While value does come in to play when making suggestions, it isn't always the highest priority. This is why a "one size fits all" suggestion that is supposedly representative of the community just won't work. Only recommending the "big brands" tends to facilitate an oligopoly and create a larger barrier of entry for new makers. You use words like "reliable" and "staple" and marginalize smaller brands with words like "unique" (meaning non-standard) and "exciting" (meaning experimental/different) and "not a sure thing". These kinds of adjectives convey risk when there is none. It isn't any more risky for someone to buy from North Country Workshop. It isn't any more risky for someone to buy from 6th Street Pottery. It isn't any more risky for someone to buy from Spencer Register. All of these brands aren't very well represented on TON, but that doesn't make them lesser quality or less appropriate for beginners.

Quote:
 
I will conceed that it would probably be better if the guide was written in a first person voice though. Then there is no chance of confusing its level of impartiality. If that was your point all along, then it previously escaped me and I apologize.

from my first post in this topic
 
If this guide is to be something representative of the community and not of your own opinions, then you will probably want to avoid making brand suggestions of any ocarina here and instead provide some common questions the shopper should be able to answer, as well as a guide on how to use the "search" feature.


We agree :) :thumbsup:
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crumpy
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very very crumpy
Well I am sorry but I just plain disagree. This is simply a collection of information that beginners may find useful, it's up to them how they interpret the information and I make that clear. I'm not recommending anything, I'm simply showing them the information that they seek combined into one place. All of this is information they will find anyway, just like I did, just like anyone else did.

This was never meant to be about me expressing my opinions, and it never will be. It's not supposed to be an authority, it is simply a collection of impartial information and that is how it will stay, I'm not going to change that.

If it turns out that enough people disagree with it, I'm sure it will get taken down and you can be happy that the world is a better place.


Ocarinadiva
16 May 2011, 04:12 AM
Adding "respectfully" to the beginning of a sentence doesn't somehow make insulting a person ok.
Adding a smiley face at the end of an insult doesn't make it ok either... :) (seem familiar?)

EDIT: Missed out a word
Edited by crumpy, 16 May 2011, 09:41 AM.
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Achint
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Fat Mouse >^_^<

Guys, this is getting way out of hand.

I think we all agree that this is a great guide, especially for beginners.
The largest discrepancy here is that Crumpy has listed a few brands and called them noteworthy. Nowhere has he said that other brands are NOT noteworthy.

I've gone through the guide again and looked it over from the point of view of the beginner that I am and all I can say is it's really good. The brands listed are the first ones that I saw myself as a bginner and researched to see what they had to offer. I'm still looking at makers and brands that I haven't heard of before and am respecting their work too. But the fact of the matter is that the brands listed above are, infact, noteworthy brands and some of the more popular ones at that. Again, that is not to say that every other ocarina maker is not noteworthy. Nowhere has it been said, and it is certainly not what should be taken as being implied.
Just because 2+2 = 4 does not mean 1+3 =/= 4 if you get my drift.

Cris, I agree with you when you say that beginners should not be offered the most bang for their buck, rather be given what they want in terms of an ocarina. But I can tell you as a beginner, I'm not quite sure what it is I want from an ocarina just yet.
In some cases I want a pure, deep tone. In other cases I wish I had a textured and almost rustic tone. But I only discovered this rustic tone recently (from one of your videos infact =P) and that at this juncture I'd be glad to accept the most bang for my buck if it means practicing on a quality ocarina while I figure out what it is I want from my ocarinas.
Infact, this list of brands would only compliment your point about figuring out what it is a beginner wishes from his or her ocarina because the list allows them to explore the capabilities of both.
As far as I'm concerned this list is:
a) non-exhaustive and should be considered as such.
b) inconclusive as far as the capabilities of the brands goes.

Crumpy hasn't elucidated what these brands are capable of and I think this is where the beginner needs to have initiative. They've got a list of brands. They know where to start. Now research. Simple as that. And along the way, I'm sure, just as I have, they will find new brands which will require them to research some more, and then some more and it continues.

So as a beginner I would advise other beginners to actually check out that list and see if there's anything they want in there before moving on to lesser known ocarina makers who may have equally good ocarinas. I take back what I said in my earlier post about brand bias...
I personally feel there's nothing wrong with this list and that Crumpy is right in saying that beginners would come across these makers/retailers on the forum much before any others anyway. I say this from first hand experience as I am a beginner who has just ordered his first ocarinas. And if you look at the list in my sig, you'll notice it's the ones in this list.

EDIT: Added a point I thought was important.

Edited by Achint, 16 May 2011, 07:02 AM.
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CosmicWaves
Inline Ocarinist
Ocarinadiva
16 May 2011, 04:12 AM
CosmicWaves
16 May 2011, 02:48 AM
@ OcarinaDiva Respectfully, you seem to take offense at the fact that so many people on this board like a specific company,
Adding "respectfully" to the beginning of a sentence doesn't somehow make insulting a person ok. In the future, if you think you might need to add "respectfully" to beginning of a sentence, you might want to rethink what you're trying to say. I don't have a problem with ANY brand of ocarinas, though I do like some ocarinas more than others. Regarding the company that I supposedly don't like people liking, I own more of their ocarinas than most members here. Off the top of my head, I think I have at least 15 or so, including their premium set of 7 ocarinas.

Quote:
 
when advising a beginner, it simply makes sense to recomend the company that gives the most bang for the buck.


I disagree. I think it makes sense to give the absolute best recommendation based upon the person asking, not upon my own preferences. While value does come in to play when making suggestions, it isn't always the highest priority. This is why a "one size fits all" suggestion that is supposedly representative of the community just won't work. Only recommending the "big brands" tends to facilitate an oligopoly and create a larger barrier of entry for new makers. You use words like "reliable" and "staple" and marginalize smaller brands with words like "unique" (meaning non-standard) and "exciting" (meaning experimental/different) and "not a sure thing". These kinds of adjectives convey risk when there is none. It isn't any more risky for someone to buy from North Country Workshop. It isn't any more risky for someone to buy from 6th Street Pottery. It isn't any more risky for someone to buy from Spencer Register. All of these brands aren't very well represented on TON, but that doesn't make them lesser quality or less appropriate for beginners.

Quote:
 
I will conceed that it would probably be better if the guide was written in a first person voice though. Then there is no chance of confusing its level of impartiality. If that was your point all along, then it previously escaped me and I apologize.

from my first post in this topic
 
If this guide is to be something representative of the community and not of your own opinions, then you will probably want to avoid making brand suggestions of any ocarina here and instead provide some common questions the shopper should be able to answer, as well as a guide on how to use the "search" feature.


We agree :) :thumbsup:
Frankly, I was not attempting to insult you, and I do not feel that my statement was overly insulting. I simply stated what I have gathered from several of your previous posts on this forum. You tend to get upset when people advocate more popular companies, and you have an obvious preference towards one company, which is something you are not attempting to hide. Is that not true? I feel like you admitted as much proudly. Once Again, I have no interest in attacking you personally. And regardless of what you think, I feel the word Respectfully definitely softens any conversation when used as an opener, becuse it implies that I respect you.

Secondly, taste in musical instruments is a highly subjective matter, to assume that you can figure out what a person will enjoy and recomend an ocarina accordingly factoring in every company available is hit and miss at best. Wethere you like it or not, more mainstream brands (unless they are budding new companies) are mainstream for a reason. They have a proven track record, and many content customers, and thus they are a good general fit for most beginners. It is also not possible to argue that smaller companies do not tend to be more exotic, and that it is not a greater risk to buy a company which has a less prominent track record, because both of these things by definition must be true.

A company that is less well known likely has a comparatively unique product to sell. Additionally,a company that is not as well known carries a level of POSSIBLE risk. Let me be clear in stating that I never meant to indicate that this is always the case. It is also unair to interpret my words as marginalizing. I know as well as anybody that small companies sometimes make the best products. However, I'm not willing to risk $50 on a product that has comparitively less feedback. Nothing is stopping you from advocating these companies, especially if several people are able to vouch for the quality of the product. But until there is sufficient positive feedback from several users, woldn't you agree that it i more sensible to buy from a more established company?

My problem is not with your adovcation of smaller companies, but with your sentiment that brand names should be removed because the companies in the guide are big names.
Also, I have heard nothing but good things about spencer register's Ocarinas and I don't see why they couldn't be included in the guide.

Once again, I apologize if you found my words offensive. if you would prefer we can take this discussion to a private forum that will not further clutter up this thread.

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crumpy
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very very crumpy
EDIT: pointless post.
Edited by crumpy, 16 May 2011, 09:41 AM.
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Ocarinadiva
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Play what makes you happy. - Achint

@ Crumpy : I'm not sure what you're talking about. Are you holding some grudge against me from a previous conflict? If I somehow insulted you, I'm sure it wasn't intentional and apologize if I've hurt your feelings.


@ Cosmic Waves

I honestly have no idea why you're trying to bring me personally into the discussion. In the future, if you are sincere in your claim of respect for me, you will argue my positions and not try to pretend that you know me or what I am about. Let me be clear in repeating that you have made some very incorrect assumptions about me. If you have any questions or need clarification, feel free to PM me and I'd be happy to help.

Quote:
 
Secondly, taste in musical instruments is a highly subjective matter, to assume that you can figure out what a person will enjoy and recomend an ocarina accordingly factoring in every company available is hit and miss at best.


But it is superior to making blind/blanket recommendations.

Quote:
 
Wethere you like it or not, more mainstream brands (unless they are budding new companies) are mainstream for a reason. They have a proven track record, and many content customers, and thus they are a good general fit for most beginners.


In the ocarina world, mainstream brands are more popular for more reasons than just quality. Most of the top brands have been very crafty with marketing and are successful because they are good business people. Making a good ocarina and running a good business are two entirely different things. Two of the larger brands have a very diverse lineup of ocarinas. Simply recommending a brand is not sufficient. Specific models would be more appropriate than others.

Quote:
 
It is also not possible to argue that smaller companies do not tend to be more exotic, and that it is not a greater risk to buy a company which has a less prominent track record, because both of these things by definition must be true.


Exotic
1.of foreign origin or character; not native; introduced from abroad, but not fully naturalized or acclimatized: exotic foods; exotic plants.
2.strikingly unusual or strange in effect or appearance: an exotic hairstyle.
3.of a uniquely new or experimental nature: exotic weapons.

The smaller ocarina makers represented on TON tend not to be exotic (except Pacchioni who doesn't classify himself as a maker). For the most part, I think they're pretty conventional. If you want to talk about exotic, the larger retailers tend to have more exotic offerings. Focalink has double ocarinas in different keys, a soft blow triple and STL has the max range series. Songbird has some very exotic offerings, like the gemstone ocarinas and the eagle bone.


Quote:
 
A company that is less well known likely has a comparatively unique product to sell. Additionally,a company that is not as well known carries a level of POSSIBLE risk. Let me be clear in stating that I never meant to indicate that this is always the case. It is also unair to interpret my words as marginalizing. I know as well as anybody that small companies sometimes make the best products. However, I'm not willing to risk $50 on a product that has comparitively less feedback. Nothing is stopping you from advocating these companies, especially if several people are able to vouch for the quality of the product. But until there is sufficient positive feedback from several users, woldn't you agree that it i more sensible to buy from a more established company?


I don't think it is more sensible to buy/recommend something simply because it is more popular. There are quite a few very small operations that produces extremely high quality products at affordable prices. The fact that they don't market themselves or aren't aggressively trying to take market share doesn't somehow negate the quality of their instruments or make them less appropriate for a beginner. You mention "possible risk". All purchases have a possible risk and it is up to each individual to decide if the risk is worth it. For instance, you seem to value having a lot of reviews or recommendations. I, on the otherhand, value the opinions not of the majority, but of a select few people who I know are knowledgeable and experienced enough to actually make an educated recommendation.

Quote:
 
My problem is not with your adovcation of smaller companies, but with your sentiment that brand names should be removed because the companies in the guide are big names.
Also, I have heard nothing but good things about spencer register's Ocarinas and I don't see why they couldn't be included in the guide.


I am saying that in order for the guide to be representative of the community, it should either list ALL or none, otherwise it doesn't actually represent the community. All really isn't feasible, so there's really only one logical option.
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Jack Campin
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Quote:
 
Simply recommending a brand is not sufficient. Specific models would be more appropriate than others.

A-men, sister. That's true of almost all wind instruments; the same makers will usually produce a large part of the spectrum from top-of-the-line pro instruments to beginner models that barely work or things intended to be purely decorative. Somewhere in between there will usually be something that strikes the right balance between affordability and capability for a given person.

I wonder if there ought to be a section about "what are you intending to do with it?", or more attention paid to the answer to that question throughout the whole document.
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CosmicWaves
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By pointing to you personally, I was simply indicating that it was possible your bias lies on the other end of the spectrum, and that this is something that should be taken into consideration. From now on I will leave any remarks about you personally out of the disscussion. And I recant any former judgements I made about you. But once again, I was not implying anything insidious. Everyone has a personal bias and a personal stance to take, that is simply human nature.

Let me also stress that everything I am saying applies only to a first time buyer (i.e. a beginner). Thus I feel it is certainly better to make a suggestion that has a great deal of previous support from former buyers. Generally a beginner does not know what they want, so it is reasonableto tell them what they should buy based upon their goals. the purpose of a guide is not to inundate a beginner with a laundry list of companies, but to reccomend the cream of the crop, or bang for the buck. And of course both of these things are open to interpretation.

In terms of your arguing for larger brands simply being very good marketers, I am sure that that does have at elast something to do with it, but good PR cannot stand alone, the product must also be held to a certain level of quality or there would be a lot of disgruntled customers.

I was using the term exotic to imply that a smaller brand would sell an ocarina that is not as common. (e.g. ooh, that's a company I haven't heard of... or ooh, I don't have one of those yet) I didn't mean to imply anything about standardization. I've never been a fan of strict dictionary definition, because common vernacular allows for a more open interpretation, and dictionary definition often skews the intent of the speaker. Basically I am not choosing my language carefully word for word, so please cut me some slack ;)

In regards to your final two points: Not all knowledge is equal, if several very accomplished ocarinists recomend a brand (and they are no on payroll or something) then it is reasonable to weigh their advice as equal to or greater than a majority consensus. Thus I find no contradiction there.
However, to attempt to force all brand names out of the guide seems illogical to me. I feel like that is throwing the baby out with the bath water. why not simply add to the guide over time to make it more comprehensive?
Also I still maintain that it makes more sense to acknowledge group of beginner instruments that achieve the highest level of excellence, (or bang for buck, etc. depending on how they are grouped.) rather than saying: "so you want to buy an ocarina? well here is every single company that makes good one, enjoy being as inundated and confused as you were before you read this guide".

Finally, you make it seem like the beginner purchase is the end all be all, when I personally see it as a gateway instrument. Beginner instruments should be of good quality, but economical. It simply doesn't make sense to buy a $200 dollar ocarina you might never play. As a result of this, it wil probably not be the last ocarina a beginner buys... heck for most people it won't be the fourth to last.

Its like the tinwhistle... you buy one...and then you buy a crap ton. And this community is especially blessed, because high quality ocarinas are relative cheap and require little storage space. In this respect I think you give little credit to consumers, especially niche consumers. I'm willing to bet a lot of people on this board are jonesing for a new ocarina that they can add to their collection, and if it is a second or third purchase, I bet most of them are looking for something out of the ordinary (by out of the ordinary, I mean not the same old company).

So am I saying that small brands suck, or that they should be excluded from the guide? No. I'm simply saying that it is not sensible to throw out all of the brand names because one or two companies you like haven't been included.

And Finally Finally, A guide is a condensation of facts not a laundry list, that's why its simplified for beginners. someone buying a second or third Ocarina will likely not bother with this guide, but will probably ask opinions on the forum instead if they are having trouble deciding. I feel like the variety of recomendations that appear in a forum thread would necessarily be more diverse, and that a forum thread is the right place for such diverse recomendations. To be honest I'm getting burnt out on the subject though, and its really not that important to me. I just think that crumpy's guide is a good Idea because it shows initiative to further the knowledge base on this site. Why not jsut ofer to add in information about the companies you feel deserve some exposure rather than asking him to essentially neuter his guide? I strongly feel that taking the brand names out of the guide would make it generic and pointless.
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Ocarinadiva
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Play what makes you happy. - Achint

Accusing me of bias is a blatant personal attack. Rather than addressing what I've posted, you instead chose to try to bring my character into question. I don't see how you can think that behaving in such a way is respectful in any way. To me, implying that I am motivated out of bias IS insidious, as it is an attack on my credibility. The fact that you haven't PMed me and continue to mischaracterize me, leads me to question either your motive or your intelligence.

As far as the rest of your post, I don't respect you enough to respond. I sincerely hope in the future you have opportunities to improve the low opinion I have of you.

I understand that you're new here, so to offer perspective, I invite you to look at the many photos of my ocarina collection or perhaps peruse the Ocarina Catalog.
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crumpy
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very very crumpy
@Od, no grudge, just an observation. :)

Jack Campin
17 May 2011, 02:20 AM
Quote:
 
Simply recommending a brand is not sufficient. Specific models would be more appropriate than others.

A-men, sister..... I wonder if there ought to be a section about "what are you intending to do with it?", or more attention paid to the answer to that question throughout the whole document.
I'm sorry I really don't understand. I have devoted several paragraphs to just that purpose and keep mentioning that I will do it even further when I integrate the poll results. The poll results (the only part that could be seen as making any specific recommendation) will be a small bit of information surrounded by repeated encouragement to think about what they intend to use the instrument for, what style they are after, what brands they warm to the character of.

I'll quote some of what's been in there from the beginning for convenience EDIT: here is some of it below.

Crumpy
 
When considering a beginners ocarina you should think carefully about what you are after. Some ocarinas are designed for quiet playing for personal entertainment, others for performing 'on stage' with other instruments. Some create a meditative mellow sound, some an attention grabbing loud singing sound.
Crumpster
 
Although there are ocarinas that are recommended for beginners, many people have started out on ocarinas with more difficult or demanding characteristics and had no problems at all. If you have a particular attachment to a brand or style of ocarina there is no reason that you cannot be successful with that particular instrument. Different ocarinas have different styles and flavours and different players have different tastes. The most important thing is that you find the right instrument for you.
Crumpalot
 
There are many manufactures of multi-chambered ocarinas, all with varying sound and playing qualities. I have personally fallen slightly in love with the Giorgio Pachionni TriplaS and am saving for one right now. A lot comes down to personal preference and you should do some research into which brands appeal to you.


All of this is in the Points to consider for beginner purchase section. I will post the poll results in there as another point for people to consider but it is a small bit of useful information amongst a whole tide of encouragement to think about "what are you intending to do with it?".
Edited by crumpy, 17 May 2011, 05:34 AM.
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CosmicWaves
Inline Ocarinist
Ocarinadiva
17 May 2011, 04:36 AM
Accusing me of bias is a blatant personal attack. Rather than addressing what I've posted, you instead chose to try to bring my character into question. I don't see how you can think that behaving in such a way is respectful in any way. To me, implying that I am motivated out of bias IS insidious, as it is an attack on my credibility. The fact that you haven't PMed me and continue to mischaracterize me, leads me to question either your motive or your intelligence.

As far as the rest of your post, I don't respect you enough to respond. I sincerely hope in the future you have opportunities to improve the low opinion I have of you.

I understand that you're new here, so to offer perspective, I invite you to look at the many photos of my ocarina collection or perhaps peruse the Ocarina Catalog.
So essentially, what I am gathering from this last post, is that rather than choosing to accept my apology, and the fact that I said I take back everything that I said about you, you would rather insult both my intelligence and my motives. And then you proceed to tell me that you don't respect me? I invited you to PM me first, and yet you chose not to, what does that say about your character, your motive, and your intelligence then? Nothing, because I assumed you overlooked it and wanted to continue posting in the forum, I wish you would give me the same courtesy. The fact is that I thought you wanted me to pm you about your personal character, and I did not feel comfortable doing so, because I have no issues with you as a person. I did not think you meant the discussion in general.

If you would re-read my post, you would notice that I personally think everyone has bias. I do not think it is a bad thing, I just think that sometimes people are unaware of the fact that it is there, or are not willing to accept that they are expressing it (as a historian, I am big on bias). I was just making note that maybe your preferences influence your opinion about this guide. My explanatins of that fact were just my attempts at letting you know that I meant no harm. But rather than dropping the issue, you brought it up again and again, and now once more directly after I agreed not to mention you personally again in any of my posts. Of the two of us, you are the only one who has made a direct attack on character, and stated that this was your intent. Tone is very difficult to discern across the internet, so rather than getting angry with me, I would prefer that you take a step back, take a deep breath, and PM me if you have anything further to say, so that we can work out our differences in private. Thank you, and Best of Wishes, There are no hard feelings on this side, life is to short to be angry with people on the internet :)

Also, I apologize for anything I might have said that was offensive, and will state for the record that my judgment is not based on a personal knowledge of you, it was simply my perception.
Edited by CosmicWaves, 17 May 2011, 06:07 AM.
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crumpy
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very very crumpy
I don't think suggesting someone has a bias is a blatant personal attack, after all you were pretty intent on accusing me of such in this thread. My reaction was to deny it and point out why. Your reaction is to blow up on someone.
Edited by crumpy, 17 May 2011, 06:37 AM.
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Ocarinadiva
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Play what makes you happy. - Achint

I haven't made an attack on your character, I've shared my opinion of you as well as my sincere hope that my opinion of you improves.

Accusing me of bias is unacceptable and is slanderous. It is an attack on my credibility and your continued efforts to do so despite my offer to clear up any misconceptions you have, can only be a willful disregard for accuracy or a lack of intellectual capacity to understand its importance. You may be operating with a definition of bias that doesn't have negative connotations, if so, you may want to choose a different word. Most people can agree that they would rather get an "unbiased" opinion over a "biased" opinion.

I see no reason to tolerate anyone simply operating on the assumption that I am biased. I happen to make videos for an ocarina company. They do not own me and have absolutely no control over my preferences.



@ Crumpy

You solicited feedback, and I assumed that such a guide would endeavor to avoid bias, which is why I pointed it out. I clearly outlined the parts of the guide I thought contained bias and gave reasons/supporting evidence as well. If I simply said that you are a biased person and that the guide is biased because you're biased, that would be something completely different. See the difference?



Edited by Ocarinadiva, 17 May 2011, 07:30 AM.
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reikokuna
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Black sheep among your daily lurkers
crumpy
15 May 2011, 08:30 PM
reikokuna
15 May 2011, 07:58 PM
crumpy
15 May 2011, 07:45 PM
reikokuna
15 May 2011, 07:22 PM
It is an issue when his own personal assumptions become mixed in with the presented majority opinion, without making note of that.
This never happend at any point.
Case in point: Assumption about Noble Ocarinas. That's at least one instance. It's no longer relevant because you have corrected it.

So yes, it has happened at least once, at some point :)
My mistake. When you said 'mixed in with majority opinion', I thought that was actually what you meant.

I got a fact wrong. I didn't start mixing my opinion and preferences into the guide which is what you were suggesting.
It wasn't that you got a fact wrong, but that you assumed and presented it (among others) to be a fact when it wasn't, and claimed that your guide's contents were not your own, but based on (majority) community opinion, except for the part about sheet music vs. tabs.

So yes, you are (or, were...since you do keep editing) mixing your opinion and preference into the guide. Nothing wrong with that if you say it in the first place.

What's wrong is you refuse to acknowledge which input is just your own, and which was gathered through your diligent extensive research through TON's whole history that you cannot possibly all link to.

It's a little pretentious to say all information within (except that which you had originally stated...unless again you edit without saying what you edited), are mere echoes of information gathered from the forum, when one refuses to site even a reference, that can back up said information and encourage further reading.

EDIT: Removed apostrophe where it shouldn't be. Just because it's an eyesore, and it was "Doh!" inducing. :facepalm:
Edited by reikokuna, 17 May 2011, 12:03 PM.
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crumpy
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very very crumpy
Quote:
 
It's a little pretentious to say all information within (except that which you had originally stated...unless again you edit without saying what you edited), are mere echoes of information gathered from the forum, when one refuses to site even a reference, that can back up said information and encourage further reading
Every step along the way of this conversation I have had with you I have asked you to point out anything you want me to clarify so I can do my best to. You simply ignore me each time. I'm not refusing to back up what I have found in any sense at all.

I make one small mistake about noble ocarinas, something I thought was a fact but it turns out I made a mistake. So I apologise and take it out immediately, yet you try to use this to illustrate that I'm mixing my opinions through out the whole thing. If that's the case then show me an example, stop telling me it's flawed and point something out then. how about you back up what you are saying?

Yes, I have edited stuff out. I've mainly edited out spelling and grammer. The only other thing I edited out was the short part where I said that certain brands where often recommended as beginners ocarinas. This is something that I have observed within the community, the only way I could prove that is find about a hundred quotes, one quote alone would not support the argument at all. So instead I hold a poll to find out peoples opinion, and Lo and behold!!! it turns out I was right all along.

If you find anything that you think is questionable in the guide, Then please do question it. Show me what you want me to back up, as I have been asking all along. I will do my best to show you the sources.

EDIT:I had made a post here about ocarinadivas last post addressed to me but I realised that I really don't care so I have removed it as to not provoke more conversation on the topic. I'm not going to argue on these subjects any more. I'll take in constructive criticism but I'm not going to continue to discuss such trivial things.

Also if anyone spots a problem, any facts I have wrong or something then bring it up and I will accept it gladly but I'm not going to continue to debate what I have already said.
Edited by crumpy, 17 May 2011, 04:16 PM.
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Ocarinadiva
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Play what makes you happy. - Achint

crumpy
17 May 2011, 01:56 PM
The only other thing I edited out was the short part where I said that certain brands where often recommended as beginners ocarinas.
This is an untruth. You also edited this out :

Quote:
 
TNG also offer well priced multi-chambered ocarinas but are usually considered of inferior quality.


Here are some excerpts that, as of now, still contain biased language :
Quote:
 
* Focalink/Stien/FYpottery - TON thread for Focalink - Very popular and respected Asian 12-hole ocarinas, single and multi-chambered.
Quote:
 
* Gosselink - TON thread for Oliver Gosselink ocarinas - French maker Oliver Gosselink makes Highly regarded uniquely glazed single chambered ocarinas and 'bird' ocarinas.
Quote:
 
* Hind - TON thread for Hind ocarinas 1 - TON thread for Hind ocarinas 2 - American wooden ocarinas. Single and Multi-chambered, both inline and transverse style. Beautifully crafted, unique sounding ocarinas requiring soft breath and producing a sound of low volume.
Quote:
 
* Maparam - TON thread for Maparam ocarinas - Very highly rated ocarinas no longer in production. Only available second hand. Can fetch very high prices in the second hand market.
Quote:
 
Another design is the inline ocarina, which has a fingering system very similar to the transverse ocarinas. Note worthy makers are Hind and Mountain ocarinas.


The above quotes corrupt your guide's neutral point of view and introduce bias. Whether or not I personally agree with any of the statements above makes no difference. Right now, from those quotes alone, your guide still contains bias.

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crumpy
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Quote:
 
crumpy
17 May 2011, 01:56 PM
The only other thing I edited out was the short part where I said that certain brands where often recommended as beginners ocarinas.
This is an untruth. You also edited this out :

Quote:
 
TNG also offer well priced multi-chambered ocarinas but are usually considered of inferior quality.
Ok, my bad. I meant that as well, it's along the same lines. I should have said "the only other thing I edited out was the short part where I mentioned common thoughts on certain brands or models."

That makes no change what so ever to my point though. It is also based on what are common views and I have also held a poll on the subject of double ocarinas to replace the comment.

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Regarding the rest of your post Ocarinadiva, I have not been saying this guide has no bias. I'm saying it is based on facts and the opinions of the community. I'm saying that there is no bias based on my opinions in there. I seem to be repeating these facts quite a lot. I have never claimed it to be anything different.

I have said multiple times right from the beginning "that this isn't based on my opinions but on the most commonly expressed views on the board"

If the members here have a preference then so be it. That is what this post is supposed to be a representation of. That is what beginners ask for, the opinions of the people here.

I belive all of the things you quote are exactly that, the opinions of the board. What exactly have you morphed your argument into? what is your complaint? that the opinion of the board isn't good enough?
Edited by crumpy, 17 May 2011, 04:43 PM.
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reikokuna
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What I've been saying was simple. That you not claim to be simply echoing, what's been mentioned...

Problem was it was like you were washing yourself off of the responsibility of having placed your own opinions, by stating those did not come from you and you simply wrote the information that's already written.

Anyway, you've made changes, and it's turning out to be good. Glad you're learning. You can always edit out and correct the mistakes. I'm not going to be baited into being a fault-finding hound.

I asked about one of your questionable facts, you change them upon realization that you basically made it up through person assumptions.

I elaborated on what my issue is, with your (hopefully) previous methods, and you tell me that never happened, instead of acknowledging it and dropping it. Just so you remember, I point it out. You posted, that you didn't realize that's it was included in what I meant. I leave it at that, thinking it was the end.

...and then I go back on this thread to just be a mere spectator, and I see you've edited and added to what you said, and so I respond.

You say I ignore what you've been saying, but...you're simply overriding what I've been saying too? Again, who says you have to link to every single post in the forum? You over-complicate things by stating one or two citations isn't enough, so you'd rather leave out any factual basis for example, just because you have already chosen to do it your way. Basically, it would seem like you just don't want to cite, or you probably don't know when it is best to do so... because you don't have a substantial source to link to. Just the numerous echoes you've heard over time, and nothing in particular.

It is like you claim to just parrot out readily accessible knowledge, and it doesn't speak for anything you yourself think?

I'm saying there's less chances for deeming a statement as having just been purely the opinion or understanding (be it sensible or skewed) of the writer of the guide...if citations, and links are made where they are applicable.

---
Anyway, that's basically done and over with. You did say with your last statement that if there is again, something questionable, that you'd be happy that it be pointed out to you.

I hope that is something now being encouraged in your guide (you did make changes, so I suppose that's been put in there too)...I hope people reading your guide, don't take it as it is, and swallow it whole, but to ask, ponder, and research still, at a point when it isn't going to get in the way of learning.

Sidenote: I likely used a lot of analogies you may find harsh. I don't have a gift with words, no brevity. So I struggle to explain what I mean, and usually come across badly, in an aggressive, fault finding manner. I could say I was just reacting to the atmosphere I got from the initial tone of your guide, with its...seeming to have a know-it-all, won't-back-down attitude...all because you've read what people have heard...putting together an amalgamation of a he-said-she-said-they-said...and then at the same time, denying inputs where it was just your own...after all...but *sigh*, I guess I should stop rubbing it in, and just hope you get it...which I think, you now do...or always have, but I didn't realize. =3=
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