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Ocarina Ranges and Names; This comes up a lot; I'd like to settle it with a reference.
Topic Started: 18 Aug 2010, 11:08 PM (17,478 Views)
Elven Spellmaker
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== Cirno -- Opinionated Baka ==

Goudy Stout
22 Oct 2010, 11:03 AM
Jack, i think that you missed out one thing in that quote.

Quote:
 
Usually the first scale these instrumentalists learn is their "C" Major Scale which sounds a "Bb" Major scale.



Quote:
 
I would therefore argue that they learn a Bb Major scale and not a C Major scale.

Just because its a transposing instrument and they read a C and play a Bb, doesn't mean that the scale they learn is C Major. It might look like C Major on sheet music but its not actually a C Major scale.
They learnt to read a C major scale, so in reality, they did learn a c major scale. Though what is played sounds a Bb scale and it is, they did not learn a Bb major scale. What you said about it not actually being a c major scale is false, but can also be true depending on how you interpret it. When a trumpeter plays a C major scale it is a c major scale. Simple logic. The only thing is that the c fingering is a Bb, so the notes produced are actually in the Bb scale.

If a trumpeter plays a c major scale, is he playing a c major scale? Yes.
If a trumpeter plays a c major scale, is the scale c major in concert pitch? No.

Thats where you got confused ;)

I disagree, if I ask a trumpeter to play a C Major scale, I expect to hear a C Major scale.

If I wanted a Bb Major scale I'd ask for one.

He is not playing a C Major scale if he plays in his home key of Bb.

Example: Say I wanted a specific note to tune an instruments note on and I ask for a C on a trumpet. The trumpeter should play a concert pitch C and not a Bb.
Otherwise I as the orchestra leader have to remember I am asking a trumpeter to play a note and then adjust my call of C to ask them to play a D.
It would get way to confusing.
When Sherb asks me for help on his Double SG, I specifically tell him before I start calling out notes whether I mean concert C or Home Key C.

If I say play a C, I expect him to play a C, if I say finger a C then I would expect him to play a G.
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markal363
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A Woodwind Doubler
Elven, Sorry but you're quite confused in all of this:

"I disagree, if I ask a trumpeter to play a C Major scale, I expect to hear a C Major scale.

If I wanted a Bb Major scale I'd ask for one.

He is not playing a C Major scale if he plays in his home key of Bb.

Example: Say I wanted a specific note to tune an instruments note on and I ask for a C on a trumpet. The trumpeter should play a concert pitch C and not a Bb.
Otherwise I as the orchestra leader have to remember I am asking a trumpeter to play a note and then adjust my call of C to ask them to play a D.
It would get way to confusing.
When Sherb asks me for help on his Double SG, I specifically tell him before I start calling out notes whether I mean concert C or Home Key C.

If I say play a C, I expect him to play a C, if I say finger a C then I would expect him to play a G."

A conductor, whether orchestra or band, knows this stuff like the back of their hand. I happen to have been one for several years. A conductor may ask for a Bb concert pitch from a trumpet player in which the trumpet player would know to play a C, or the conductor would ask the trumpet player to play a D in which the conductor would be expecting to and getting a C. It's that plain and simple. Conductors know what each and every instrument is pitched in and what the transpositions are immediately. It is second nature to him or her. Again, I know this because I was one. I have even known some pretty bad conductors in my time and still they have known what to ask for when requesting any and evey pitch.

Also, there is no "home key". This term is not used nor does it mean anything to an educated musician. I'm assuming you're using this to mean easiest key or the first key someone learns to play in. If a very inexperienced player wants to think of it this way, then so be it but I would advise not going into an ensemble whether orchestra, band, or any other ensemble and saying "home key" as it will cause embarrassment for whomever utters it.


@Everyone: I realize I might be coming across as headstrong in this topic but misinformation is easily spread like a virus. I think the world of TON therefore when I see misuse, abuse, and bad information listed I get a bit crazy. For many years I have been a music educator and musician, so to think that some members here might want a career in some aspect of music but were given bad formation is really disheartening. So I beg anyone wanting to post information, please don't makeup terms or give bad information for the sake of wanting to sound knowledgeable or for any other reason. I realize we all make mistakes from time to time and that is part of being human but arguing a misguided or ill informed point only hurts oneself and those that don't know any better. Saving face is not worth screwing someone else over.
Edited by markal363, 22 Oct 2010, 10:57 PM.
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Krešimir Cindrić


There is really no point in arguing about this - things are how they are and should be accepted. You should trust those who know what they are talking about (Markal and... well... me :) ).

When a trumpeter (who plays a trumpet in B flat) plays in C major, he think about C major, he reads music in C major, everthing is in C major, except the sound which comes out of his trumpet, which is in B flat major. The orchestral score is already adjusted so that the trumpet part is transposed - that is why key signature in trumpet parts has two sharps more (or two flats less). Trumpeter never thinks about the concert pitch, i.e. actual notes that he plays. Composers, arrangers and conductors have to think in concert pitch and transpose when writing parts for the trumpet. With a little practice, it is not anything difficult to do.

About recorders - they are a bit of an exception, because of historical reasons. All recorders are non transposing instruments, i.e. "in C". However, often you can find something like "alto recorder in F" (as Ubizmo noticed). This is maker's designation which implies the range and register of that recorder. As recorders are exceptions, this doesn't mean they are transposing instruments. You will never find "recorder in F" written in the orchestral score - they are all notated in C.

Ocarinas are different in that regard from recorders - they are all transposing instruments (except bass C) and are notated transposed.
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Goudy Stout


Krešimir Cindrić
22 Oct 2010, 10:43 PM
(Markal and... well... me :) ).
Should i be offended? :noes:

Anyways, as markal said, in an orchestra, if said to play a 'C concert pitch' the trumpeters would know to play a D. Though in the orchestras im in, ive only heard the conductor talk in concert pitch, rather than in the transposing instruments key, but this would obviously change between conductors.

I also agree with the 'no more arguing about this' part too :) Unless something else comes up in this topic, this will be my last post.
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markal363
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A Woodwind Doubler
Goudy Stout
23 Oct 2010, 12:59 AM
Krešimir Cindrić
22 Oct 2010, 10:43 PM
(Markal and... well... me :) ).
Should i be offended? :noes:

Anyways, as markal said, in an orchestra, if said to play a 'C concert pitch' the trumpeters would know to play a D. Though in the orchestras im in, ive only heard the conductor talk in concert pitch, rather than in the transposing instruments key, but this would obviously change between conductors.

I also agree with the 'no more arguing about this' part too :) Unless something else comes up in this topic, this will be my last post.
Nope, don't be offended. I think you have greatly added to this discussion along with your many other posts in other discussions. You and Kresimir have certainly been voices of reason and knowledge. Hats off to both of you.
Edited by markal363, 23 Oct 2010, 05:49 AM.
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Sigurthr
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Flutist and Ham Radio Operator. Talarđu Íslenska?

I just try to be helpful and am forced to use the terms I know, which is where most of the inaccuracies I do say, come from. I am truly envious of you guys who got to be properly instructed and taught music professionally. So, realize when I post it is to help, and I may not use the correct term, but rarely do I not know the subject which I am posting on =). I am ALWAYS GLAD to receive corrections and free lessons XD.

@Kresimir something you said struck me as interesting/amazing:
Quote:
 
Trumpeter never thinks about the concert pitch, i.e. actual notes that he plays.


Is this really true? For them they really never actively think about playing 1step flatter than everyone else? If so then do they get used to associating say D with what we would associate C with? What I mean there is what happens to a trumpeter with perfect pitch? Do they recognize every pitch as being named differently? I may not have perfect pitch but I recognize how certain pitches sound from hearing them so much. If you asked a trumpeter with perfect pitch what key a song was in (by hearing it) would they tell you it was in F when it is in G?

I had always assumed those who play transposing instruments must always be aware of the concert pitches they are producing even if they "think" in (fingered) C.
Edited by Sigurthr, 23 Oct 2010, 06:20 AM.
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ubizmo


markal363
22 Oct 2010, 08:38 PM
Also, there is no "home key". This term is not used nor does it mean anything to an educated musician. I'm assuming you're using this to mean easiest key or the first key someone learns to play in. If a very inexperienced player wants to think of it this way, then so be it but I would advise not going into an ensemble whether orchestra, band, or any other ensemble and saying "home key" as it will cause embarrassment for whomever utters it.
Exactly. The terms "home" or "native" scale are not in use, but they are convenient ways to refer to something that every musician is quite familiar with. We could use your terminology and refer to it as the "easiest" or "simplest" scale on the instrument. Again, I'm speaking of wind instruments, and specifically woodwinds, since I have more experience with them. On a transposing instrument, that'll usually be the C scale of the instrument. On alto recorder, it's the F scale or G scale (if it happens to be a G alto). On woodwinds, this is the scale whose fingering is maximally linear. On a D tin whistle, it's the D scale, of course. On a clarinet, it's the F scale in the first octave, even though that may not be the first scale you learn; it's the scale with the simplest fingering. It's often (but not always) the first scale that new students learn, because it's the simplest. The only point to be made is that there is such a scale, regardless of what term (if any) may be used to refer to it. From my point of view, this makes the term "sub-tonic" a simple way to refer to the notes below that scale, regardless of the key of the instrument. But I'm open to other suggestions.

Ubizmo
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Krešimir Cindrić


A suggestion: just avoid mentioning "tonic" or anything derived from it ("subtonic", "sub-tonic", etc...) in the context of instruments, as this term is, and should be, reserved only to major and minor scales, not instruments.

Regarding notes that are played using sub-holes on the ocarina, I think it's best to call them "sub-hole notes" as it uses a term which is reserved for instrument (sub-hole) and not a term reserved for scales.


Sigurthr
23 Oct 2010, 06:16 AM
Is this really true? For them they really never actively think about playing 1step flatter than everyone else? If so then do they get used to associating say D with what we would associate C with? What I mean there is what happens to a trumpeter with perfect pitch? Do they recognize every pitch as being named differently? I may not have perfect pitch but I recognize how certain pitches sound from hearing them so much. If you asked a trumpeter with perfect pitch what key a song was in (by hearing it) would they tell you it was in F when it is in G?

I had always assumed those who play transposing instruments must always be aware of the concert pitches they are producing even if they "think" in (fingered) C.
They certainly are aware that they play a transposing instrument. However, they do not think about it while playing. For example, if the orchestral piece is in F major, violin players think in F major, but clarinet and trumpet players think in G major (as their instrument is in B flat). They play their part, which is written in G major, and think about notes of G major - exactly the same way violin players would think if the piece was in G major. Of course that they know that their pitch is not the concert pitch, and that what comes out of their instruments is in fact F major, but they do not think about it while playing. As far as they are concerned, the piece is in G major.

Simply put, players of transposing instruments never do any transposing while playing. The composer/arranger did that for them when writing their part. They just play what is written, in the key in which it is written, thinking about what is written. What is coming out of their instrument is in different key, but they do not worry about that, as that was already done by the composer/arranger.

Having absolute (perfect) pitch may seem confusing, but after you spend years practising your instrument every day, you get used to it. In fact, you get used to it much faster, it's not a problem, really.
Edited by Krešimir Cindrić, 23 Oct 2010, 04:43 PM.
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Jack M.
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Baroque is love.
Actually, I would say that C Trumpets are more common in orchestras, but oh well, that's beside the point.

But there is really no point in arguing anymore, we all know that we are never going to agree.
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Krešimir Cindrić


That is why I also mentioned clarinets, which are almost always in B flat (and E flat), very rarely in C in modern orchestras.

In Baroque orchestras, trumpets are usually in D, as well as timpani (but sometimes in E flat). :D

There is no need to come to a mutual agreement - there is only one thing which is true, those who do not agree with it should.
Edited by Krešimir Cindrić, 23 Oct 2010, 05:06 PM.
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markal363
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A Woodwind Doubler
ubizmo
23 Oct 2010, 02:42 PM
markal363
22 Oct 2010, 08:38 PM
Also, there is no "home key". This term is not used nor does it mean anything to an educated musician. I'm assuming you're using this to mean easiest key or the first key someone learns to play in. If a very inexperienced player wants to think of it this way, then so be it but I would advise not going into an ensemble whether orchestra, band, or any other ensemble and saying "home key" as it will cause embarrassment for whomever utters it.
Exactly. The terms "home" or "native" scale are not in use, but they are convenient ways to refer to something that every musician is quite familiar with. We could use your terminology and refer to it as the "easiest" or "simplest" scale on the instrument. Again, I'm speaking of wind instruments, and specifically woodwinds, since I have more experience with them. On a transposing instrument, that'll usually be the C scale of the instrument. On alto recorder, it's the F scale or G scale (if it happens to be a G alto). On woodwinds, this is the scale whose fingering is maximally linear. On a D tin whistle, it's the D scale, of course. On a clarinet, it's the F scale in the first octave, even though that may not be the first scale you learn; it's the scale with the simplest fingering. It's often (but not always) the first scale that new students learn, because it's the simplest. The only point to be made is that there is such a scale, regardless of what term (if any) may be used to refer to it. From my point of view, this makes the term "sub-tonic" a simple way to refer to the notes below that scale, regardless of the key of the instrument. But I'm open to other suggestions.

Ubizmo
Ubizmo, If you choose to believe what you want to believe instead of what a certified instrumental music educator with a Double Bachelor's in Music Education and Saxophone Performance, and a Master's in Woodwind Performance (clarinet, saxophone, flute, oboe, & Bassoon) who has been playing professionally for 29 years and teaching for 25 years, then so be it. Nothing I write here will change your mind.

Subtonic: If you were to give your definition of a subtonic as an answer on a theory entrance exam as an incoming freshman music major, it would be marked wrong. I guarantee it. Would you then answer that the supertonic is any note above the tonic? If so, you would also be marked wrong on this answer. I guarantee it.

Now we all have ways to remember or think about things that get us to the desired conclusion but that doesn't mean that "our way of thinking about it" is the "correct answer". Let me give you an example: When I have to transpose on the fly on alto sax (lets say I'm reading a piano score), the correct answer is for me to play a Major 6th above what I'm reading. In my head though I am not doing this. In "my" head I'm thinking down a minor 3rd up an octave. Using this example, if I were to answer a transposition question on an exam with the way I think about it rather than what it actually is, it would be marked wrong. The correct answer is up a Major 6th.

One has to be able to distinguish between the "how" one thinks about something and the "what" it actually is. I mean no offense but in these instances you have espoused the "way" you (and maybe some others) think about these things rather than "what" they actually are.

Don't get me wrong, "how" people think about things is very important but when it leads to incorrect "whats" and then is stated as legitimate, is a disservice.
Edited by markal363, 23 Oct 2010, 07:36 PM.
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Jack Campin
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ubizmo
21 Oct 2010, 01:27 PM
And the alto F recorder? Why is it called that? It's not a transposing instrument, as you know. It's notated in C, so what makes it an F instrument?

The answer: Its native scale is in F.
That's not the key it plays in most easily. Both C and G are easier. In most ways a recorder in F plays like a whistle in G.

The name simply comes from the lowest note. Concert flutes are described as being "in C" but they play like whistles or simple flutes in D - D is the six-finger note for both. An alto flute is described as being "in G" but it fingers like a whistle in A.

Similarly for ocarinas. A 10-hole ocarina in G plays most easily in A mixolydian or D major (two sharps rather than one sharp).

The idea of "in-ness" for keys of musical instruments is wildly inconsistent. For some (like clarinets or harmonicas) it has nothing at all to do with the range.
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Krešimir Cindrić


I think Ubizmo wanted to make a distinction between "subtonic" and "sub-tonic", but I don't like that at all.

Scales and instruments should not be confused - a scale is one thing (and minor and major scales have a tonic - other modes, like dorian, do not have a tonic, but a tonus finalis), and the instrument is a different thing (instruments have holes, valves, keys, etc... and can play one or more scales). Instruments do not have a tonic.


Jack Campin
23 Oct 2010, 05:48 PM
ubizmo
21 Oct 2010, 01:27 PM
And the alto F recorder? Why is it called that? It's not a transposing instrument, as you know. It's notated in C, so what makes it an F instrument?

The answer: Its native scale is in F.
That's not the key it plays in most easily. Both C and G are easier. In most ways a recorder in F plays like a whistle in G.

The name simply comes from the lowest note. Concert flutes are described as being "in C" but they play like whistles or simple flutes in D - D is the six-finger note for both. An alto flute is described as being "in G" but it fingers like a whistle in A.

Similarly for ocarinas. A 10-hole ocarina in G plays most easily in A mixolydian or D major (two sharps rather than one sharp).

The idea of "in-ness" for keys of musical instruments is wildly inconsistent. For some (like clarinets or harmonicas) it has nothing at all to do with the range.
Yes, recorders are exceptions because of historical reasons. Recorders "in F" are not really transposing instruments in F, but instruments in C. The fact they are called in F is something which is older than the concept of transposing instruments.

Ocarinas are different as they were from their first day regarded as transposing instruments. So ocarina in G is really a transposing instrument in G. If a piece is in F major, the part for ocarina in G would be notated and played in B flat major.
Edited by Krešimir Cindrić, 23 Oct 2010, 06:02 PM.
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markal363
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A Woodwind Doubler
@Jack & Kresimir Very good points.
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Tentenguy
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That guy

Jack Campin
23 Oct 2010, 05:48 PM
ubizmo
21 Oct 2010, 01:27 PM
And the alto F recorder? Why is it called that? It's not a transposing instrument, as you know. It's notated in C, so what makes it an F instrument?

The answer: Its native scale is in F.
That's not the key it plays in most easily. Both C and G are easier. In most ways a recorder in F plays like a whistle in G.

The name simply comes from the lowest note. Concert flutes are described as being "in C" but they play like whistles or simple flutes in D - D is the six-finger note for both. An alto flute is described as being "in G" but it fingers like a whistle in A.

Similarly for ocarinas. A 10-hole ocarina in G plays most easily in A mixolydian or D major (two sharps rather than one sharp).

The idea of "in-ness" for keys of musical instruments is wildly inconsistent. For some (like clarinets or harmonicas) it has nothing at all to do with the range.
Not true. The reason a recorder in F is called 'In F', at least to my knowledge, is becuase the most linear fingering is the F scale. A 10 hole in G is easiest (for me, at least) to play in concert G, because it is completely linear. Comparing a concert flute to a tin whistle insults it, the systems are quite different, especially on the F natural vs. F sharp, and the fact that concert flute does not use half-holing.
I have been thinking for a while, and I agree now that the term 'Subhole tone' would be better because 'Sub-Tonic notes' causes some confusion. Let's be done with this meaningless debate!
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ubizmo


markal363
23 Oct 2010, 05:22 PM
Ubizmo, If you choose to believe what you want to believe instead of what a certified instrumental music educator with a Double Bachelor's in Music Education and Saxophone Performance, and a Master's in Woodwind Performance (clarinet, saxophone, flute, oboe, & Bassoon) who has been playing professionally for 29 years and teaching for 25 years, then so be it. Nothing I write here will change your mind.

Subtonic: If you were to give your definition of a subtonic as an answer on a theory entrance exam as an incoming freshman music major, it would be marked wrong. I guarantee it. Would you then answer that the supertonic is any note above the tonic? If so, you would also be marked wrong on this answer. I guarantee it.
Erm, my point has never been that the meaning of "subtonic" is anything other than exactly what you've said it is. As I've stated more than once, I know what it means. I've merely suggested that the use of this term, or the homophone term "sub-tonic", could reasonably be recruited to refer to the notes that fall below the tonic of...that scale that we don't seem to have an agreed-upon name for. The linear scale is, I suppose, the most objective way to state it. On ocarinas, saxes, and flutes, that's the C scale. On alto recorders and clarinets played in the chalumeau register, it's the F scale (but concert Eb, of course, in the case of clarinet). If this is too out of sync with theory, then so be it. "Sub-hole notes" is good enough.

Getting back to classifying ocarinas, saying A4-F6 doesn't tell what key it's in. Saying C5 doesn't give it's range. So I suppose the most accurate way is to use both: e.g., A4-F6 in C, or something like that.

Ubizmo
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Krešimir Cindrić


ubizmo
23 Oct 2010, 09:33 PM
Getting back to classifying ocarinas, saying A4-F6 doesn't tell what key it's in. Saying C5 doesn't give it's range. So I suppose the most accurate way is to use both: e.g., A4-F6 in C, or something like that.
It is enough to say A4-F6, as the ocarina is chromatic and can play any note within that range. But I guess to avoid confusion, it is better to say (A4)C5-F6 (to separate the sub-hole notes). For soprano ocarinas, this can be expanded to (A5)C5-F7(A7) to include overblown notes.
While Sigurthr's attempt to classify ocarinas according to their name is recommendable, it is, unfortunately, futile as almost every maker has a different naming system. Sigurthr's naming system corresponds to Noble's naming system, but is different from Focalink's, MapAram's and most others. I don't know why he decided to call Alto F ocarina Tenor F. I recommend we call this ocarina Alto F and do not use the name Tenor at all. UPDATE: Noble updated their naming system and no longer use the term Tenor. This is a most welcome change, as now Focalink and Noble use what is basically the same naming system. Yay for coming closer to standardization. :jumpy:

Here is a table of names and ranges most makers use, which I made after the original Kissing's table posted in this topic:

Click to see
Attached to this post:
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Edited by Krešimir Cindrić, 22 May 2011, 10:55 AM.
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Jack Campin
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Opener of Catfood Tins

Quote:
 
The reason a recorder in F is called 'In F', at least to my knowledge, is becuase the most linear fingering is the F scale.


No it isn't. On an F alto, B flat is T123 4-67 and B natural is T123 -56- in the lower register; t123 4-6- and t123 -5-- in the upper. Both notes need the same number of extra fingers below an open hole to get them in tune in both registers. Almost everyone finds the B natural fingering (same as F sharp on a descant/soprano) easier.

Historically, the earliest descriptions didn't use pitch names at all, preferring labels like "treble", but insofar as slightly later ones did use pitch names, they referred to the range. I do not recommend attempting to make sense of early recorder tutors, it does your head in. (The only manual worse written than Ganassi's "La Fontegara" that I've seen was the instructions for a Taiwanese-made digital clock I bought in the 1980s).

The other issue is the varying strength of notes across the range. The bottom note on most recorders is pretty weak. You don't want to use something sounding that feeble as the tonal centre.


Quote:
 
A 10 hole in G is easiest (for me, at least) to play in concert G, because it is completely linear.


I got mine specifically to play in 2 sharps, i.e. with a C sharp fingered T1234 T-6--, which is ergonomically almost the same as the upper register C sharp on a G alto recorder (or the upper register F sharp on C soprano). A 2-sharp scale with nine notes up from a low G natural is what Highland pipes play, and I can play almost all Highland pipe tunes on it pretty idiomatically. I occasionally use other pitches but that's 90% of my ocarina repertoire. (Though of course this music is often in gapped scales that leave the C out).

Quote:
 
Comparing a concert flute to a tin whistle insults it, the systems are quite different, especially on the F natural vs. F sharp, and the fact that concert flute does not use half-holing.


Historically the concert C flute evolved from the simple D flute by extending the foot. The Boehm F natural mechanism came along quite a bit later. You don't half-hole on a Baroque flute, you crossfinger as on a recorder. Most of the notes played in D major on tin whistle, Baroque flute, 8-key flute and Boehm C flute have the same fingering, and it saves an ENORMOUS amount of mental effort if you remenber that when switching between them. (My typical Sunday afternoon is playing hundreds of Scottish tunes from memory with hardly a break for four hours, switching between recorder, whistle, ocarina, 8-key flute, Boehm flute and Albert- or Boehm-system clarinet every couple of minutes to suit the music, the grouping and the noise level, all of those instruments in more than one pitch. I could not do that without having the playing similarities and the actual sounding pitches very clearly organized in my head).

"Insult", phooey. I might switch in seconds between a school plastic recorder and a bought-new modern alto flute costing 300 times as much. Price and technological complexity don't come into it when deciding which will make the right musical effect. One of the main reasons I use the ocarina is because it looks Neolithically crude. Startles the heck out of people when sophisticated music comes out of it.
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Sigurthr
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Flutist and Ham Radio Operator. Talarđu Íslenska?

The similarity between the fingerings of concert pitches of an ocarina, concert flute, simple system flute, and whistle is what allows me to play all of them. I have a "basic plan" mapped out in my head, and from there I have different offshoots for each instrument where things differ.

@Kresimir, I think if we combined both my chart displaying ranges on the staves and your name conversion chart we would have the all-encompassing resource we are all trying to build here.
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crumpy
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very very crumpy
Wow, thanks.

I havent read this whole thread yet, but I just looked at the two documents you guys have created and it helps to get me thinking and this understanding the technical side of music. and where ocarinas fit in on that too.

I've learnt a lot reading through these forums in the last few days. As someone who has never had any exposure to any kind of technical aspect of music it's proving quite a revelation for me, and I'm enjoying it immensely.

Thanks again.
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elysium
Beginner
Sigurthr
18 Aug 2010, 11:08 PM
Hi everyone. If possible and agreeable a Sticky from the mods would be FANTASTIC! If this is better suited somewhere else move it at your discretion. I simply want it viewable easily as per my goal:

I have made this diagram up to explain the ranges and names for common ocarina sizes/pitches and keys. This is all with what I would call "openly accepted and uncontested terminology", e.g. as simple and widely accepted as possible.

My goal is to help end the constant stream of posts that say things like "I want something lower than a Tenor C because the high notes are too high." and "What kind of ocarina is this? It goes from X to X1" and "What range does a X have?". I want this to be available for all the newcomers with questions, many of which who don't get answered or don't understand the terms we use.

I am open to suggestions and will modify it if there are any errors or if there is a better accepted term for something. Please let me know what you think.

OCARINA RANGE AND NAMING GUIDE



Ok, thank you very much, I can tell, it could not be more graphic, hehe :music: :music: :music:
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franko48
Beginner
Sigurthr
18 Aug 2010, 11:36 PM
I had considered not using the SATB nomenclature but then you confuse the european members who are used to the way european makers like Rotter and Pacchioni name things.

A C3 is an Alto C which is C5 on a piano. I think far fewer people know pitches by piano pitches than one would assume. More to the point users of Tabs would probably not know one C from another. If we give them my chart and the fingering chart that came with their oc, they could determine where theirs fits. If by names (or pitch numbers) people cannot find where their oc fits then by notes on the staff they could.

The whole STL Tenor/Alto thing does get confusing but as far as I am aware they list the pitches correctly on the staff, and in their method book use the 8va.

I'm not saying that Using Piano Pitches wouldn't be more correct, it certainly would be. But if you put too much info into it, it will seem overwhelming and daunting. Likewise using completely unfamiliar terminology would do the same. The neophyte would look upon it and think "I don't recognize a single thing on here, I cant use this!".
Thanks for the info. This is helping me to understand. So basically the Tenor STL ocarina C major actually has as it's lowest C the middle C on the piano. As far as the G soprano STL that they also call an alto the lowest G on that is about 1.75 higher than the middle C on a piano. Would you agree?
Thanks for any advice.
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Daniel
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Double Ocarinist x 3
Tenor C for STL is Alto C for most everyone else, and its lowest C is C5 (C above middle C (C4)).
Edited by Daniel, 21 Nov 2015, 05:14 AM.
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Jack Campin
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Opener of Catfood Tins

STL's "tenor" plays the octave above middle C as its lowest note. A "tenor" from any other supplier will sound a fourth, fifth or octave lower.
Edited by Jack Campin, 21 Nov 2015, 01:35 AM.
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Ocarina Newbie!
Pendant Ocarinist x 3
Sigurthr
18 Aug 2010, 11:08 PM

OCARINA RANGE AND NAMING GUIDE



Hello I think no longer can the image be seen will you repost this please thanks!
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