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| What will be the next innovation?; A players wish list. Are the makers reading this? | |
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| Topic Started: Feb 22 2010, 04:15 PM (2,040 Views) | |
| OcLover | Feb 22 2010, 04:15 PM Post #1 |
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Ocarinist x 3
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I was thinking about the recent release of ocarevolutionary's new "max range" double. Whether you would buy it or not, or if you like it or not is not important for this discussion. What is important is that a new innovative design which has pushed ocarina development to the next level has been released to the ocarina world. The ocarinas we play today are available thanks to those before and among us who improved on previous designs. If you think about the "modern" (1850's to present) milestones for ocarina development, there have been several great innovations. Three of the greatest being: 1. 1850's - Giuseppe Donati creates the 10 hole transverse ocarina. 2. Late 1920's - Takashi Aketagawa improves on Donati's design to create a 12 hole transverse. 3. 1960's - John Taylor's 4 hole English fingering system. Other examples of innovations we enjoy today include the double, triple, quad, double harmony, and inline ocarinas. What will be the next innovation? Could it be a triple chamber ocarina that plays over the range of a quad chamber? I'll bet someone is already working on that idea... Panch? Ocrev? Zack Shih? Songbird? Hind? Spencer?..... So what are your suggestions for future innovation or your dream ocarina? |
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| ubizmo | Feb 22 2010, 04:29 PM Post #2 |
 
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I am patiently waiting for Karl Ahren's "ProRange" ocarina, which will allow two-chamber playing without the necessity of moving the fingers to another chamber. I think that will be an important step. I think Ocarevolution's extended range double is a very significant development, too. It's range is comparable to that of an oboe, which puts a vast amount of music in range, with just two chambers. I'd like to see more ocarinas made from more durable materials than clay. Resin would be an interesting choice. Ubizmo |
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| sirhalos | Feb 22 2010, 05:09 PM Post #3 |
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1. Reeded Ocarinas 2. Digital Midi Synth Bluetooh Wireless Ocarinas 3. Key Change Ocarina (you add extension to mouth piece to change Key only possible to change within range of 3 full tones) |
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| O'Poltergeist | Feb 22 2010, 06:22 PM Post #4 |
Pink Elephant on Parade
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The addition of keys to facilitate chromatic playing was a logical step in the development of every European wind instrument. The addition of keys to an ocarina could probably help to solve several different problems not related to chromatic playing, too: - For instance when the holes for the top notes get to big on a bass ocarina. - Or if holes get too small on the higher chambers of a double/triple/quadruple ocarina. - A good keywork can also improve the intonation of the chromatic notes. - Also, the keys could be made in a way that allows to operate holes on two chambers simultaneously without changing your fingers from one chamber to the other. - Perhaps it may even be possible to have key that allows a double or triple ocarina to be played with a single opening mouthpiece, switching the airflow to different ducts according to the position of the key. A bit like how a chromatic harmonica works. |
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| Durian Songbird | Feb 22 2010, 06:45 PM Post #5 |
Ocarina Maker
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These are some great ideas. I'll keep my eyes on this thread, and if something interests me, I will work towards it. Right now I am interested in incorporating unique materials into the ocarina, specifically crystal. |
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| Flying-squirl | Feb 22 2010, 06:53 PM Post #6 |
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Inliner x 5
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Crystal would be cool in an ocarina. I've been wanting one w/crystal for a while. Best of luck Darryn! |
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| OcLover | Feb 22 2010, 07:02 PM Post #7 |
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Ocarinist x 3
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Wow, I like this idea! A slide for an ocarina, maybe actuated with the right thumb. |
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| hylandude123456789 | Feb 22 2010, 07:40 PM Post #8 |
It's hylandude!
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there are a few threads around ton that talk about crystal ocarinas. I'm not a maker but i'd love to make an ocarina by myself and who knows perhaps i mighjt come out with a good idea |
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| Sarume | Feb 22 2010, 07:43 PM Post #9 |
At her very beginning
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I'm wondering if it was possible to make a decent glass ocarina, or could it brake because of the vibrations? |
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| sirhalos | Feb 22 2010, 08:28 PM Post #10 |
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1. A special hard plastic ocarina that you can take apart that has a locking ability to hold it back together (rimmed for air tightness). Inside of it you can place a second material that fits snuggly inside that makes the internal area smaller making the ocarina in a different key. Comes with 3 different insides to pop in making the ocarina in C, F, and G! 2. A Triple ocarina that on the bottom of the ocarina is a button. Under the button is a spring with a trigger that extends towards the mouth piece that pushes up a cotton stop in that chamber. The button is just a simple 3 push switch with the spring and cotton stop for each chamber. This would allow 1 wind way to blow inside of 3. ... Similar to what someone already mentioned... Edited by sirhalos, Feb 22 2010, 08:31 PM.
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| O'Poltergeist | Feb 22 2010, 10:57 PM Post #11 |
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Pink Elephant on Parade
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These ideas remind me of something: the "lute stop" of a harpsichord. A harpsichord often had a key/lever to push/pull that would change the sound of the instrument. With the lute stop a piece of felt would be pressed against the strings, making the sound softer, more like a lute. Perhaps there could be a way to do such a thing with an ocarina, too. Getting two or more different sounds (or two different levels of volume) would enhance the expressive abilities of the instrument greatly. |
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| Dhalphir | Feb 23 2010, 05:42 AM Post #12 |
Opinionated Jerk
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The idea of keyed ocarinas has come up before and I think the general consensus in the end that while it might make the ocarina a little more easy to play and a bit more versatile, it just wouldn't be an ocarina anymore. part of the charm of ocarinas is that they are carefully handmade and they are works of art and beauty as well as instruments. Having keys, to me, would destroy that. |
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| kissing | Feb 23 2010, 06:04 AM Post #13 |
there is always time for a song
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A triple ocarina made of super durable material, while maintaining its sound quality is something I'm waiting for lol. |
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| Indigo | Feb 23 2010, 07:42 AM Post #14 |
Shade of Blue
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I dont know much about the air science going on inside ocarinas, but would it change the ocarina's key if you could clip on some kind of extention around the outside of one? Doing so would increse the air volume... My take on ocarinas is that by the double ocarina, it's a little complicated. I could never imagine being able to understand a triple ocarina. Instead of making ocarinas more complicated, I would like to have a simple way to innovate the ocarina. Like a switch you push to drop an octave. Are there already ocarinas that play harmonies without adding extra holes? |
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| ocarevolutionary | Feb 23 2010, 08:03 AM Post #15 |
ocarina inventor/designer
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Someone is indeed. |
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| shirf02 | Feb 23 2010, 08:29 AM Post #16 |
Enjoys the Disney Renaissance
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This I like. And a Midi transverse of course. |
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| Panch | Feb 23 2010, 11:03 AM Post #17 |
The Whistlemaker
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I was thinking about making a double inline similar to this one... http://theocarinanetwork.com/topic/6775829/1/ Except I'd have the second chamber tuned one octave above the first chamber, giving it three redundant notes... not really an innovation, but a nice little idea. |
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| Crowler | Feb 23 2010, 11:10 AM Post #18 |
emergency medical hologram
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I'm... A bit of a loser, and I like the ocarinas very simple. I'm more looking forward to stylized and really... Perfected and beautiful singles, than I am a triple ocarina, that doubles as a melodica, and has a built in microphone that ensures good quality recordings... Though that would be nice. I also quite like Sirhalos' idea though... A bit like a tuning slide. I'm a sap for 'customizing' things, and I can already imagine a range of different 'shells' and model paints for it. 
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| sirhalos | Feb 23 2010, 02:46 PM Post #19 |
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Chanter Ocarina... yea I went there. Comes in two flavors 1. You place a reed in it like an oboe reed or better yet a bagpipe reed in the mouth piece. Then you place a mouth piece cover over that that you blow in allowing the reed to buzz. This would give it a more oboe sound to it but earthy. 2. Dimo, this is the bamboo membrane used in a Dizi Chinese instrument. This would give the Ocarina a more oriental sound. Had 1 other one thought of last night. 3. An ocarina the shape of a recorder with same fingerings for the bottom two sharps and flats. At the bottom of the ocarina it goes out to a ball shape about the size of a softball with the tip in front of it is the voice hole where the straight part connects. Edited by sirhalos, Feb 23 2010, 02:50 PM.
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| Kalasinar | Feb 23 2010, 05:17 PM Post #20 |
Colour-Blind Hedgehog of Great Britain
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Call me simple minded, but i think i'd be happy with just a triple alto G... And i also like Sam's idea - to have triples (and doubles) in something really durable that would be ideal for travelling and holidays abroad (i still have a phobia of taking any of my clay ocarinas on planes  )
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| ubizmo | Feb 23 2010, 05:49 PM Post #21 |
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Absolutely. I have no interest at all in triples, but I'm very interested in doubles. The only reason I don't own one is that a fragile ocarina that can't travel with me everywhere just isn't part of my plan. I'm hoping to see the Mountain double sometime soon, since I'm partial to MOs, and I am especially keen on not having to move fingers around, but I'll probably get the first plastic double that comes along. I was tempted to get the Hind extended range double, but from all that I've seen and heard, it's not a good fit for my playing style, which is aggressive. At the $550 price point, I don't want to buy something that's not a good fit. Obviously plastic isn't the only durable material, but it's one of the more realistic options. Ubizmo |
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| O'Poltergeist | Feb 23 2010, 06:35 PM Post #22 |
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Pink Elephant on Parade
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A quadruple bass ocarina made from an ultra-durable and ultra-lightweight material would be an innovation I'd really like. 
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| Nixie | Feb 23 2010, 06:38 PM Post #23 |
Ocarinist x 4
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How does Nylon sound? I'm a while off yet because it involves an expensive and iterative process, but eventually I aim to have something available. |
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| Crowler | Feb 23 2010, 07:19 PM Post #24 |
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emergency medical hologram
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Ubizmo, you could ask Hyunil Ko at Woodsound about his doubles. I'm not sure what put you off the Hinds, but maybe the Woodsounds might have a difference, like the fact that they're type-two and not type-one (was that what you meant?). I heard Hyunil Ko is making transverse doubles now, so it might be worth investigating. |
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| shadowyi | Feb 23 2010, 08:06 PM Post #25 |
is a girl. [音之翼]
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sirhalos -- LOVE your first idea. What an idea! I hadn't even thought about it before you mentioned it. Ubizmo -- I'm with you with waiting for the ProRange, I wonder if it will be something similar to changing your breath pressure (as you do for the flute) to get different octaves? My personal plea is for a digital/electronic ocarina. Synth effects galore!
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| sirhalos | Feb 23 2010, 08:20 PM Post #26 |
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Crowler - I would imagine he is saying he dislikes how Hind's require very small breath (the reason I sold my double). I personally would not suggest most people to buy one unless that is very much know that is what they want. As Mr. Hind has said it is designed that you just 'breath' into it. If you do anymore than that it will overblow and squeak and the higher the note is the easier it is to overblow. It can be extremly difficult for anyone with big vocal background in a woodwind instrument such as Ubizmo with saxophone jazz background. Shadowyi- I think it might be possible to design an ocarina that can be overblown to do the second octave however it would need to be very long and thin to work. The more wide it is the harder it would be able to do (which is why you can do it on a soprano). I would imagine it would need to look similar to a flute or tin whistle will a ball at the end (see my example of a suggested one above) but I think the sound would be very dead. Another new idea HARD RUBBER OCARINA! Rubber is porous to allow better sound, also if it was firm enough you could push certain notes down by bending the ocarina. Of course the voice hole would need to be pretty solid but the ability to bend notes would be cool. It would be light and the easier to work with in making compared to plastic. I am imagining very firm rubber of course not like rubber bands... and pushing down fairy hard to bend a note. I would make another post but I know it will complain... Here is my first drawing of a concept I should have others soon... This is a trumpet design think smaller than a hand held camcorder, larger than an iPhone... probably closer to DS-Lite size of thickness and everything. Works on the English Pendant 4 hole system with a thumb hole giving you 1 octave +1. The right side has a place to put a strap just like you would use on a camcorder. left side has the voice hole coming out thought the mouth piece is centered it pushes towards the left side slowly. Also a voice hole on the thumb. Best part is you can play just 1 handed! Alternate design would be with pistons the same way a trumpet would work. Spoiler: click to toggle
Edited by sirhalos, Feb 23 2010, 09:45 PM.
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| zombiefewd1 | Feb 23 2010, 10:45 PM Post #27 |
Ocarina maker
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I would love to see a triple with three subholes on the lowest chamber an added subhole for the ring finger on the middle chamber and a subhole for the index finger on the highest chamber. |
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| Indigo | Feb 24 2010, 01:37 AM Post #28 |
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Shade of Blue
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Though I agree. an electronic ocarina could be very cool. It could be the shape of a 12 hole transverse, but you could change the options to make it only recognize 5 holes like a pendant ocarina. It would also be really convenient because you could choose whatever tuning and range you desired. As a side note, the iPhone has an electronic ocarina, but it's limited and nobody in their right mind would buy an iPhone for the Ocarina app. |
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| Kiniko | Feb 24 2010, 01:56 AM Post #29 |
<3 Lolicon
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Digital ocarina would be fantastic. I had a dream where I was playing an ocarina that had two windways that both used the same toneholes, but played an octave apart. I wonder if that would be possible.. |
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| ocarevolutionary | Feb 24 2010, 02:41 AM Post #30 |
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ocarina inventor/designer
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It's already been done, actually. edit - depending on one's interpretation of "same toneholes" that is. Edited by ocarevolutionary, Feb 24 2010, 02:44 AM.
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| Kiniko | Feb 24 2010, 02:57 AM Post #31 |
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<3 Lolicon
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Same toneholes as in, same toneholes. Not two separate holes beveled together like on the TNG double pendant. It seemed like there was one chamber with two airways going into it. |
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| ubizmo | Feb 24 2010, 04:52 AM Post #32 |
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This is exactly right. When I play I like to "lean into" the ocarina, and not have to worry about squeaking or going silent. The Hind is a beautiful instrument and, based on what I've heard, it has a sweet, delicate sound. But I'm not a sweet, delicate player. I have to say that the new Ocarevolution MaxRange sounds like it would suit my playing style pretty well. It sounds like it's meant to be pushed, rather like the Forte double. I'm definitely tempted... As for the MO ProRange, there's another thread about it somewhere. The extended range isn't obtained by overblowing. It's more like Kiniko's dream. edit: Re Hard Rubber: Some clarinet and sax mouthpieces are made of hard rubber, which demonstrates that the material can be machined to fine tolerances. Of course, rubber that hard wouldn't be able to be compressed for bending notes, but it seems like it would be a viable option for durable ocarinas anyway. Ubizmo Edited by ubizmo, Feb 24 2010, 04:55 AM.
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| OcLover | Feb 24 2010, 06:33 AM Post #33 |
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Ocarinist x 3
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Here's an idea for proof of concept. Imagine a short piece of pvc pipe, now add a voice hole in the middle and a short mouthpiece, so you have a 'T' shape. Use a rubber membrane to cover the open ends of the pipe. Then when you blow into the mouthpiece, you push in or pull out the membranes. What you would have is a variable pitch whistle. Press in the membranes and the pitch goes higher, pull out on the membranes and the pitch goes lower. Add some tone holes and this ocarina might have some cool note (or at least mind) bending capabilities. |
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| King Ocarina | Feb 24 2010, 06:55 AM Post #34 |
Pére Poches Drôles
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- 1 ocarina, three keys. Perhaps a manufactured inline ocarina which features removable rectangular rings to change the pitch. *wink*cough* Karl *cough* - Solid gold, baby - Electric capabilities. - An odd thingamajigger that can be virtually slapped on to any object (empty cup, pumpkin, etc) and turn it into an ocarina |
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| Legal | Feb 24 2010, 07:45 AM Post #35 |
Ocarina Engineer
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I'm working on it XD Clay ocarinas are more of my interest, but I've been programming a micro controller to produce sounds with similar timbre to that of the ocarina. I just need to work out a body and interface for it rather than just buttons and POTs on a bread board. |
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| O'Poltergeist | Feb 24 2010, 08:45 AM Post #36 |
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Pink Elephant on Parade
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Great idea. A slide ocarina just like a slide whistle. Wouldn't work with tone holes, but the sound might be nice. Wikipedia: Slide whistle YouTube: Slide Whistle |
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| Bunjiro | Feb 24 2010, 10:58 AM Post #37 |
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Ocarinist
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The difficult thing about a midi ocarina is the interface - if you can manage to pull it off, consider me a buyer. An ocarina that you can hook up to your computer and play any time during the day without bothering your neighbours would be awesome. |
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| Legal | Feb 24 2010, 05:18 PM Post #38 |
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Ocarina Engineer
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Yeah I agree, the interface is a challenge. Part of what makes an ocarina fun to play is that it requires air flow to resonate. With a piece of electronics this is not the case. However, it is completely feasible to have a sensor to measure air flow speed and convert this to a digital signal that can amplify the amplitude (loudness) of the ocarina. However, this presents another thing to take into account. Increasing air speed can increase loudness to a point (with wood or ceramic ocarinas), but in general this creates pitch bending (frequency goes up). I can model the device off of a normal ocarina, or I could make it so all the notes simply get louder as the player increases air speed. What do you guys think? |
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| atkeane | Feb 24 2010, 06:14 PM Post #39 |
Uber Ocarinist X 2
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I think an interface which would allow pitch bending would be best legal. I know that for me at least some of the best sounds I've gotten from an ocarina came from sliding notes from sharp/flat to on tone, taking that away just gives you a less versatile instrument. Maybe a setting to go between harder=louder and harder=louder and higher. |
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| Bunjiro | Feb 24 2010, 07:12 PM Post #40 |
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Ocarinist
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I agree with the above. Another suggestion is, maybe you could have some sort of threshold: Blow a little bit stronger and it just becomes louder, blow even more and it pitch bends? If not, "harder=louder and higher" is good. Just remember, with midi you can set the volume yourself through software and hardware, so pitch bending is a lot more important than being able to make it louder through blowing. How will you be doing the "holes"? Some sort of touch sensor? It'd feel quite weird, unless maybe the sensors were placed in some kind of hollow. Edited by Bunjiro, Feb 24 2010, 07:13 PM.
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| Legal | Feb 25 2010, 01:50 AM Post #41 |
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Ocarina Engineer
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There are a few solutions for that. It really depends on how much you want the ocarina you're playing to feel like a normal one. The first solution would be to use capacitive touch sensor. They aren't terribly expensive...but they aren't cheaper either. What I don't like about this is the fact that you can't feel for finger holes; your simply touch a surface. It might be awkward to play. The other solution would be to use a light detector or photo transistor placed slightly below the edge of finger holes. To be honest, I'll probably end up trying both. I was looking into air flow transducers (converts air flow or pressure into a voltage signal), and I think it is possible to make an electric ocarina that takes in air flow as input. I have no experience with these, but from what I can tell it is doable. |
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| Bunjiro | Feb 25 2010, 01:57 AM Post #42 |
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Ocarinist
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I'd think a capacitive touch sensor would be the best option. Couldn't you place one in a finger hole, so that it's maybe ½mm below the surface of the oc? That way you'd get some tactile feedback for your fingers. You could have it count as a closed hole as long as the finger is touching it somehow. Something like this (cross-section of a finger hole): ---|____________|---- Where the sensor would be in the recession. Edited by Bunjiro, Feb 25 2010, 01:57 AM.
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| Sigurthr | Feb 25 2010, 02:44 AM Post #43 |
Ocarinist, Recorderist, Welder/Metalsmith, and resident wana-be Norseman.
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As long as it isn't like the iphone appp, it is terrible having no tactile feedback and an unresponsive breath sensor. |
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| Trixer | Feb 25 2010, 03:25 AM Post #44 |
Inliner
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I have been having to seriously exibit large amounts of self control to not start busting out my eletronics stuff to make an eletric ocarina. I have been thinking about it much much much more while I wait for my Oc to get here, even more now that I have a copy of all of the notes, I design embedded systems for a living, so I could have a prototype one together in like a week flat. If you used just standard push buttons and an airflow senser to start with on say an arduino board... It would cost you maybe $75 to prototype an E-Oc, assuming you have the know how for the programming, and eletronical experience to make everything work right. Which I do, I have really been holding back because I think the construction and tuning of an Oc, is one of the few arts that isn't tainted by tech. Though with that being said, if any Oc makers are looking to make an E-Oc, and want to work together, I would be overwelmingly interested in a project like this as a hobby time. If you want advice, a guiding spirit, or hands on help do not hesitate to pm me on this subject. Cause im getting more and more twitchy every day that I have to wait for the freaking mail! *Edit* On thing also I would like to add after now reading up and seeing that other people are talking about E-Ocs one thing that I would like to completely stress to you guys, is that your focused on something that at the end of the day does not matter. You can go to any mold place and tell them exactly how you want it to look an dfeel and they will make you a shell for it, and even tweak it... What is going to make or break an E-Oc is the software side of things, the methods that you choice put in place for playing sounds, either you decide to put chips into place to produce recorded sound, with good recordings this could make a very realistic sounding instrument, however you loose that "emotion" aspect that so many talk about. A good E-Oc is going to take careful thinking between your airflow sensor, and your code to produce sounds, volume, and pitch are something that can be changed simply by adding air. Really, I would start by taking a plastic oc apart, and putting push buttons where the holes are, and then start working on microcontroller code. Man, this is killing me! Im this close to saying screw tradition and doing it... Edited by Trixer, Feb 25 2010, 03:56 AM.
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| Bunjiro | Feb 25 2010, 11:01 AM Post #45 |
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Ocarinist
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Please, do! I don't think there's anybody on this forum who'd be opposed to an electric ocarina. I can't see any way that they'd become more popular than a real ocarina, since you'd never be able to properly emulate one - you could come close, but it'd never be the same thing. I mean, except for guitar, bass and synth, I can't really think of any instruments where the electronic equivalent is as or more popular than the real one. It sounds like you really know what you're talking about. Also, on the software side, I'd love to be able to use it as a midi interface to play pretty much whatever sound I want. If you could hook it up via USB to a computer, that'd be a dream come true... |
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2:28 PM Jul 31
