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Ocarina Glossary part.1 - Ocarina Types; Various common ocarina shapes
Topic Started: 14 Feb 2010, 10:01 PM (16,765 Views)
Panch
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The Whistlemaker

I felt that we could arrange this into something of a chart.

Spoiler: click to toggle


It's really quite a simple chart, and most of you should figure it out soon enough, if you haven't already by a first glance.
Most of us should agree on most points, but of course, the duplet/harmony/polyphonic catagory. We need a definitive name for this, and I'd love for people to give suggestions. We also need to call "Pendent" ocarinas something, because a lot of other types of ocarinas are made into pendents, too. I'm suggesting "English pendent", or "English" ocarina, personally.

Also, if you're wishing to suggest another catagory, please do so, however, we are not including sculptural ocarinas, on account of them being too varied in appearance to generalise with a single representing image.

Also, we are not delving into all specific kinds of certain types of ocarinas - YET. For example all transverses (10-holes, 12-holes, 9-holes) are included under the "Transverse" section. We will go into detail on all individual kinds of ocarinas later!

If any of you see an ocarina that could fill in the blanks in the chart, post a picture and I will transform it into a diagram.


Remember, this is a collaborative effort, guys! :D
Edited by Panch, 15 Feb 2010, 09:56 PM.
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Krešimir Cindrić


Great table, but I have one objection:

For a transverse "duplet" you should put something like: this.

My objection is not only subjective one (although it's well known that I love Budrian ocarinas). There are also two very objective reasons:
1. Hind's "harmony sweet potato" is much rarer form of ocarina than Budrian polyphonic ocarina. Woodsound, Pacchioni and all Budrian makers (7 generations) used this design.
2. Hind's "harmony sweet potato" uses the same fingering as a double English pendant such as those of Terry Riley (which could fit in your category of "duplet pendant", the same way as this harmony sweet potato), so they are actually pendants, not transverse. Budrian polyphonic ocarinas use linear fingering system, very similar to that of a transverse 10-hole ocarina and they use identical bodies as transverse Budrian ocarinas (made from the same mould).
Edited by Krešimir Cindrić, 14 Feb 2010, 11:52 PM.
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Panch
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The Whistlemaker

kcindric
14 Feb 2010, 10:34 PM
For a transverse "duplet" you should put something like this: this.

That's not only because I love Budrian ocarinas, but there are also two objective reasons for that:
1. Hind's transverse "duplet" is much rarer form of ocarina than Budrian polyphonic ocarina, which looks like
2. Hind's "duplet" uses the same fingering as a double English pendant such as those of Terry Riley, so they are actually pendants, not transverse. Budrian polyphonic ocarina uses linear fingering system, very similar to that of a transverse 10-hole ocarina.
Well, yes, I've considered that, but thought they were a little out of date, see... I mean, they're pretty much redundant now that the English system is around, no? Same amount of holes, almost twice the range? I'm conflicted, myself, but I feel that due to Hind's pattern (which isn't so rare, as I've seen it on at least two other brands) having an actual transverse shape and greater range, it should be the one to follow. Perhaps we'll have to put it to a vote later...

I figured that most duplets run off the English system... perhaps I'm wrong.
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Bateleur
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Meh.

There various shapes of ocarinas that use different kinds of fingerings. There are pod-like ocarinas (pendants) that use either cross-fingerings or linear fingerings, and the same is true for sweet potato ocarinas. An ocarina can be classified by both fingering style and shape, and it is my opinion that such a chart should reflect this as well.
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Panch
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The Whistlemaker

Bateleur
14 Feb 2010, 10:53 PM
There various shapes of ocarinas that use different kinds of fingerings. There are pod-like ocarinas (pendants) that use either cross-fingerings or linear fingerings, and the same is true for sweet potato ocarinas. An ocarina can be classified by both fingering style and shape, and it is my opinion that such a chart should reflect this as well.
Yes, though it'd be a bloody complex chart if we did. I thought maybe going for the most common fingerings or the most sensible would have been best, at least for this abbreviated chart. x_x

I am leaning mainly toward looks in this chart, to be honest. Hind's LOOKS more like a transverse duplet, while Budrios is essentially an inline duplet.
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Krešimir Cindrić


I can name at least 11 makers who make or used to make in polyphonic ocarinas with linear fingering system: all Budrian makers (that's 7 if we count Mezzeti brothers as one maker), i.e. Donati, Mezzeti, Vicinelli, Chiesa, Cesari, Mignani and Menaglio. Then we have non-Budrian makers: Luigi Silvestri, Giorgio Pacchioni (who made at least 5 variations on that form), Kurt Posch, Johann Rotter.

And I wouldn't call it obsolete, just because the system is older and offers a smaller range of notes. Following that logic, you could call all ocarinas except triples obsolete, because they have a smaller range, but that would be absurd since single chambered ocarinas have their advantages. There are also reasons (besides tradition, which is also a good reason) why makers like Posch, Menaglio and Pacchioni continue to make and improve designs of such polyphonic ocarinas (and they certainly are familiar with the English system, since they also make very small ocarinas with 4 or 6 holes). So, in my opinion, this is the "true" transverse "duplet".

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Panch
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The Whistlemaker

kcindric
14 Feb 2010, 10:58 PM
There are also reasons (besides tradition, which is also a good reason) why makers like Posch, Menaglio and Pacchioni continue to make and improve designs of such polyphonic ocarinas (and they certainly are familiar with the English system, since they also make very small ocarinas with 4 or 6 holes). So, in my opinion, this is the "true" transverse "duplet".

But if you look at its shape and layout, it is an inline, not a transverse at all.
Look at the direction it faces, how your hands are positioned when you play it.
It plays in a linear pattern, yes, but it cannot be a transverse, because -everything- about it says it's an inline.
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Krešimir Cindrić


Panch
14 Feb 2010, 10:56 PM
I am leaning mainly toward looks in this chart, to be honest. Hind's LOOKS more like a transverse duplet, while Budrios is essentially an inline duplet.



But if you look at its shape and layout, it is an inline, not a transverse at all.
Look at the direction it faces, how your hands are positioned when you play it.
It plays in a linear pattern, yes, but it cannot be a transverse, because -everything- about it says it's an inline.
While this is true for some Budrian doubles (such as those of Arrigo Mignani and Kurt Posch), it is not true for others, like Menaglio, whose "doppia" is transverse. It's actually two ocarinas, Do 3 and Sol 4 (alto C and alto G) stuck together. The windway has the shape of a letter T, i.e. it splits into two transverse windways which enter the two chambers at almost 90° angle. Following that logic, you can also call a Focalink double ocarina an inline, since it's windway is at a very acute angle to the body of the ocarina.


However, if you really, really want to keep Hind's "harmony sweet potato" as a representative of a transverse "duplet", that's fine with me and I think that's a great chart even as such :) It's really not such a big deal - I just wanted to point out at some arguments which I believe are valid.
Edited by Krešimir Cindrić, 14 Feb 2010, 11:07 PM.
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Panch
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The Whistlemaker

You know what!? Screw it all! XD

We have TWO different dublet types! Linear and English! There! We're both happy! Okay!? XDD
One system is just too efficient and practical to give up, while one is traditional, so it stays... therefore we keep BOTH! :V
Even so! Is "duplet" what we really want to call these? I'm just using it as a placeholder name until people overthrow the decision and want something else. I'm hoping for polyphonic, myself.
Edited by Panch, 14 Feb 2010, 11:14 PM.
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Bateleur
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Meh.

I like polyphonic more than duplet as well. But can we not just differentiate between extended range and harmony simply by calling them extended range doubles and harmony doubles? =P
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Krešimir Cindrić


I personally like the term "polyphonic double" (and the other double is "extended range double"). However, the term "harmony double" is much more frequently used (although, technically speaking, you need at least three voices to make chords which are constituents of harmony, so strictly speaking there is no such thing as two-part harmony, only two-part counterpoint).

"Dublet" or "duplet" is short and catchy and so could easily become a standard name. However, then you have problem with triple polyphonic (or harmony) ocarinas, such as huacas (where the third chamber is a drone). But I guess you could call them "triplets", so it's not a problem :)
Edited by Krešimir Cindrić, 14 Feb 2010, 11:18 PM.
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Panch
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The Whistlemaker

Bateleur
14 Feb 2010, 11:17 PM
I like polyphonic more than duplet as well. But can we not just differentiate between extended range and harmony simply by calling them extended range doubles and harmony doubles? =P
Well... they both have very different goals in mind... one does one thing, the other does something completely different. I kinda feel that should be reflected in the name, but ultimately that's not my choice to make.

And I don't believe that it should be called a "Harmony" when it isn't even technically the correct term for what it does.
Edited by Panch, 14 Feb 2010, 11:22 PM.
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Crowler
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Should the word 'pendent' in the chart be spelt 'pendant', or am I super tired?

As I've said elsewhere, I use duplet because it seems to be the standard English term for 'Harmony doubles/Duplets/Polyphonic Doubles' used on Asian forums. That and I think it's quite fitting, and shorter than the others... Plus you won't be tempted to shorten it to 'double', which causes the same confusion we have now (Kal' told me she bought a Hind double and I was about to bonk her on the head for buying a double right after her triple)!

But yeah... I don't want to put 'extended range double' or 'harmony/polyphonic double' every time I'm talking about 'doubles'! I prefer 'doubles' for doubles with the larger range, and 'duplets' for the doubles without the extra range.

There's my one-point-six pence, anyway... Just check that out and it's one-point-three pence! Is the recession finally sort of almost over for Britain?! :cry:

EDIT: No, we're not. Crowler just fails at maths.
Edited by Crowler, 14 Feb 2010, 11:34 PM.
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Krešimir Cindrić


Panch
14 Feb 2010, 11:19 PM
And I don't believe that it should be called a "Harmony" when it isn't even technically the correct term for what it does.
I completely agree. Even triple huacas are not "harmony" ocarinas in the strict sense since a drone (or pedalpunkt) is not part of harmony.

I vote for "polyphonic doubles"! :D

So, there are linear polyphonic doubles, English polyphonic doubles and combined polyphonic/extended range doubles (one chamber linear, the other English system).
Edited by Krešimir Cindrić, 14 Feb 2010, 11:39 PM.
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Crowler
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kcindric
14 Feb 2010, 11:34 PM
So, there are linear polyphonic doubles, English polyphonic doubles and combined polyphonic/extended range doubles (one chamber linear, the other English system).
I bit my tongue saying that. :dead:

I don't know. I still think that's a bit much to type when there are shorter options. It makes sense and all... But it's not hugely practical. That and it might be a daunting term to newbies, that said, that's why we have a glossary.

I'm on the fence a bit. I like the term, because it's a good description of what sets the ocarina apart, but I don't like it because if you called these, rather uncommon ocarinas 'polyphonic doubles', every time you referred to any double you would have to stick 'extended range', 'polyphonic', 'linear polyphonic' or 'English polyphonic' in front of it... And that's about three times longer than 'double'.
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Panch
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The Whistlemaker

Formal term; Polyphonic double
Abbreviated term; Duplet?

How's that?
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Krešimir Cindrić


Great, IMO :thumbsup:
Edited by Krešimir Cindrić, 14 Feb 2010, 11:49 PM.
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Poltergeist
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Where's a category for song flutes? Flutophone, Tonette and the Fitchhorn song flute may all look like cheap recorders, but they aren't. They're ocarinas.

Also, there are more ocarinas using the 7-hole=1-octave-system than just the peruvians. I can't name the species of my beautiful, wonderful Gosselink bird, but I'm certain it's a European bird, no Peruvian bird. ;)
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Crowler
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Panch
14 Feb 2010, 11:47 PM
Formal term; Polyphonic double
Abbreviated term; Duplet?

How's that?
Oh. That makes sense. I mean, we have formal and abbreviated terms at the moment, so I don't think this would take much adjusting to. Yeah, I think this is a good compromise. I makes sense, and it can be kept short, but there's also something that could be stuck in a dictionary and you'll know just what it does.

I like this. It's a lot better than 'Harmony Double'.
OcarinaPoltergeist
14 Feb 2010, 11:51 PM
Also, there are more ocarinas using the 7-hole=1-octave-system than just the peruvians. I can't name the species of my beautiful, wonderful Gosselink bird, but I'm certain it's a European bird, no Peruvian bird. ;)
Mmmm... My seven-hole for the Ocarina Werkstatt plays brilliantly, and while it's from Austria, I kind of count it as a peruvian. I mean, 'peruvian' doesn't mean it's of a poor quality.

I think our two ocarinas are very similar, though of a different appearance. I do wonder if perhaps there's a better term for them aside from 'peruvian', though... Perhaps one without the stigma!
Edited by Crowler, 14 Feb 2010, 11:55 PM.
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Panch
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The Whistlemaker

OcarinaPoltergeist
14 Feb 2010, 11:51 PM
Where's a category for song flutes? Flutophone, Tonette and the Fitchhorn song flute may all look like cheap recorders, but they aren't. They're ocarinas.

Also, there are more ocarinas using the 7-hole=1-octave-system than just the peruvians. I can't name the species of my beautiful, wonderful Gosselink bird, but I'm certain it's a European bird, no Peruvian bird. ;)
If I'm thinking off what you're thinking, those Flutophones are just ocarinas with decorative additions resembling recorders and flutes. Sorry, but those and Gosselink's birds are both sculptural ocarinas.
We'll have a section describing them, but they're all far too diverse in appearance to warrant a visual representation.
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Poltergeist
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Pink Elephant on Parade

There are/were at least three different brands of song flutes, all using the same fingering. And they're certainly not "sculptural".

I guess there's a basic problem with the chart like it is now: do you make categories according to the fingering or according to the form of the instrument? If you want a glossary that's really worth the webspace it uses, then you will have to make up one set of categories for the fingering, and another for the form of the instrument.
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Krešimir Cindrić


Panch
14 Feb 2010, 11:56 PM
If I'm thinking off what you're thinking, those Flutophones are just ocarinas with decorative additions resembling recorders and flutes. Sorry, but those and Gosselink's birds are both sculptural ocarinas.
We'll have a section describing them, but they're all far too diverse in appearance to warrant a visual representation.
And those recorder-like ocarinas can either use linear or English system (they are "inline")

I would simplify things one step further and kick the "inline", "transverse" and "peruvian" category completely. I would only have two categories: linear and English system (and sculptural ocarinas, which are completely another thing). Peruvian ocarinas are inline ocarinas that use a variation of the linear fingering system. The term "pendant" implies something small you can wear around your neck. But there are huge "pregnaphones" which are also called "pendants" because they use the English system. And there are small ocarinas you can wear around your neck (so are true pendants) but use the linear fingering system. Also, there are inline and transverse ocarinas which use English system. So it very confusing...

But one thing is simple - all (or most) ocarinas use either linear fingering system or English system - and this is a very simple basis for classification.

So, I imagine this table with only two rows: "Linear fingering system" and "English fingering system" and many columns: Budrian single, Japanese single, inline single, extended range double, extended range triple, polyphonic double, polyphonic double with a drone, etc.
Edited by Krešimir Cindrić, 15 Feb 2010, 12:10 AM.
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Panch
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The Whistlemaker

Also, I'm in favor of redubbing "pendants" as "English pendants" or simply "English" ocarinas.
I think we need to keep at least these four catagories. We need to be able them all to be easily identifiable, visually, and these are the most popular styles.

@ Poltergeist - Well then why don't you show us these song flutes so we can decide if they're worth the effort to catagorise, then. ^^
Quote:
 
There are/were at least three different brands of song flutes, all using the same fingering. And they're certainly not "sculptural"
If it has parts put onto it that don't need to be there, or is a crazy artistic shape that doesn't fit into any popular catagory, or if it is shaped like an animal, it is sculptural.
Edited by Panch, 15 Feb 2010, 12:20 AM.
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Krešimir Cindrić


The term "pendant" can be very misleading, I would kick it completely from use. :D
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Crowler
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I think we should call pendants 'Langleys', for all those Easterners who might come to the forum!

I like that term, because it makes me think that somehow I might just get an ocarina type named after me. :shame:


But for the majority of the forum... Aren't the pendants with 'English fingering' already called 'English pendants'? I figured 'pendant' was just an abbreviation. But you know, if it could catch on, English is short, and makes sense. We've even got peruvian ocarinas, so it wouldn't be odd.
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Panch
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The Whistlemaker

kcindric
15 Feb 2010, 12:15 AM
The term "pendant" can be very misleading, I would kick it completely from use. :D
Considering how deeply rooted it is into all our minds and vocabularies, I have doubts we can do that entirely, though...
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Krešimir Cindrić


Why Langleys? Because some people use it? That's not a very good reason. Langley is just one of the makers who makes ocarinas with English with system (he makes great ocarinas, but that's hardly a reason to call all similar ocarinas after him). He's not even the inventor of the system (his friend, John Taylor invented the system). Do we call all transverse ocarinas Rotters or Shihs? No.

Also, does this look like a "pendant" to you? (click for a video)

I wouldn't wear that around my neck as a fashion accessory :D My point is this: if an ocarina uses the English fingering system, it's not necessarily a pendant. Also, there are pendant ocarinas that do not use the English system, such as those small Peruvian ocarinas.

To recapitulate what I said previously: the most simple and fundamental categorisation is based on the fingering system, not the shape or appearance of the ocarina. And there are only (or mostly) two fingering systems: linear and English. I think this should be the basis for categorisation. What do you say about that?
Edited by Krešimir Cindrić, 15 Feb 2010, 12:43 AM.
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Crowler
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Uh... The 'Langley' thing was a joke. Pretty much all Korean or Japanese websites call pendants 'Langleys', through an error in translation one would assume, that caught on.

I'm for calling 'pendants' some form of 'English ocarina', whatever that may be finalised as. One warn to anyone who uses the word 'pendant' on the forum ought to be a good deterrent! ;) Linear... I don't know, I just don't like it. I think because it's too general. If someone new came to the forum and said 'I'm looking for tabs for my new linear ocarina', I wouldn't know where to start. Inlines, the linear pendants (+warn to Crowler!), transverses... While they all use linear fingering, the fingering is different. You can't just keep thumb holes covered when looking at tabs, you need something entirely different. As handy as it would be to have two fingerings, you can't show a beginner with a twelve-hole Mountain' tabs and tell them to buck up and learn the Mountain fingerings too... Because they're physically very different!
I think you have to have inlines, linear pendants (another warn to Crowler!), European transverses and transverses. They're just too different, and I think there's such a thing as over simplifying it to give yourself another way to get confused.
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Panch
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The Whistlemaker

I'd have to argue against that, Kcindric. :/
I'm sure we need something that efficiently catagorises the most popular tunings AND shapes of the ocarina. I'm sure most of us agree that playing, say, an inline, feels DRASTICALLY different from playing a transverse, despite both having linear fingerings... everything about the ocarina contributes to its playability and feel.
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Krešimir Cindrić


These are really small variations. You could argue that European and Asian transverse ocarinas use different fingering systems because Asian ocarinas require to raise right thumb before the left pinky and European (Italian, German, Austrian...) vice versa. That's why Italian ocarinas have that huge left pinky hole. Or even better, you could argue that Focalink AC and Maparam AC use completely different fingering system because of the different subhole placement.

Also, Mountain ocarinas use slightly different fingering system than Hind walnuts. But they're all linear and it is quite easy to adapt to them after learning to play the transverse ocarina.

These are just variations. There is no fundamental difference between the fingering system of a recorder, transverse ocarina or inline ocarina with linear fingering system. Of course, there are also variations on English fingering system.

But the fact is there are only two fundamental fingering systems.
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OcLover
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Triple Ocarinist
Pendant: A small ocarina which is meant to be worn on a necklace.

Transverse: An ocarina with a mouthpiece which is or is nearly perpendicular to the main body of the ocarina, such that a players breath is blown across the width of the ocarina. Some modern day ocarinas may have a mouthpiece which is extremely angled up to 45 degrees, but are still considered a transverse ocarina.

Edit: Example would be a transverse flute.

Inline: An ocarina with a mouthpiece which is parallel or inline with the main body of the ocarina, such that a players breath is blown along the length of the ocarina.

Edit: Example would be an end-blown flute. Maybe the name "End-blown" would be better than Inline, but the manufacturers won't be changing their names / designations any time soon.

Is there something wrong with these basic definitions? They do not mention fingering styles, as many fingering styles are used for any of these basic types. Just because I offer these definitions, they are not set in stone, but I do believe they describe these three basic types accurately. By changing or even eliminating certain types like 'pendant', it would only cause confusion for TON members. Besides, the main stream ocarina manufacturers categorize many of their ocarinas by these basic types and I think they will not be dropping these type names any time soon.
Edited by OcLover, 15 Feb 2010, 01:08 AM.
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Krešimir Cindrić


Panch
15 Feb 2010, 12:47 AM
I'm sure most of us agree that playing, say, an inline, feels DRASTICALLY different from playing a transverse, despite both having linear fingerings... everything about the ocarina contributes to its playability and feel.
I agree with that. But it's quite difficult to categorise feeling. I'm sure Hind's transverse ocarinas feel very different from playing a Budrian ocarina - one requires a gentle, even breath and the other strong, rising breath. I agree that's a DRASTIC difference. Ubizmo is a plays inline ocarinas beautifully and you can see and hear he is one with his instrument, but he finds transverse ocarinas uncomfortable.

I never played an inline ocarina, but I played a recorder. While the feeling is VERY different, the basic, fingering system is pretty much the same as on a transverse ocarina.

Fingering systems are easy to categorise and classify. There are only two... Feeling is something extremely hard to categorise, most likely impossible, because it depends on a vast number of parameters (each one adding a new dimension to such a table) and some of them are purely subjective.

I'm just trying to find the most simple and logical classification :) I'm not disagreeing with you.
OcLover
15 Feb 2010, 12:58 AM
Is there something wrong with these basic definitions?
Well the first problem that pops to my mind is how would you classify this:

Spoiler: click to toggle

This huge ocarina is definitely not a pendant (maybe for an elephant :D ), yet it uses the English fingering system. At present, this is classified as an English pendant ocarina :D
Edited by Krešimir Cindrić, 15 Feb 2010, 01:06 AM.
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OcLover
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Call it what it is. BIG GLOBULAR!! :D And forget the fingering system type. Fingering type and physical types are two different things and need to be addressed separately, IMO.
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Crowler
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Don't you agree though, Kcindric, that if someone were to describe their ocarina as either English or linear, and claimed they owned a linear ocarina and were looking for resources... You're going to have to ask them if it's an inline, transverse, pendant, ect.? As I said before, giving a newbie inline tabs for their transverse ocarina isn't really going to help them in the slightest. You can say all you want that there are two basic types, and I agree that there are, but when you get down to the practical situations, you can't just describe ocarinas as linear or English, because in having only two types, you could be describing almost any ocarina.

In realistic situations, you're going to have to give a bit more information, which is where the various types of 'linear' ocarina come in.
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Krešimir Cindrić


Of course I agree, Crowler. There are many subtypes of ocarinas with linear fingerings. There are also some subtypes of ocarinas with English fingering (not as many, but still...). There is a lot of diversity between ocarinas, even up to a point that one could say that ocarina is not an instrument but a family of instruments.

However, the most practical solution (as far as I can think of) to the problem of finding appropriate resources for inexperienced players is having them specify the exact model and maker of the ocarina, or to provide a photo.

For example, if someone says "I'm looking for tabs for my new ocarina". You ask them: "What ocarina do you have?" (NOT "what TYPE of ocarina do you have?" !) And they respond: "I have an STL Tenor C" or "I don't know" followed by "Can you post a picture, please?"...

In this case nobody cares how do you call such an ocarina. You really don't need categorisation for such simple practical things. I used the example of an "STL Tenor C" to show how absurd and unimportant for this situation the name of an ocarina can be (this particular ocarina is neither a tenor, nor made by STL, but who cares? You know what tabs to suggest and the problem is solved).

But in some other situations (e.g. when somebody asks "I'd like to play an ocarina but I don't know which one is best for me...") it's useful to have a simple, logical, and well structured classification system of all (or most) ocarina types.
Edited by Krešimir Cindrić, 15 Feb 2010, 01:40 AM.
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Bateleur
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Meh.

I don't think that we will be able to abandon the term "pendant" due to the fact that the term is so deeply ingrained into the community already, as has already been said. The English pendant is cross-fingered at four points, but we really couldn't refer to it as a 4-point cross-fingered ocarina since there are 5 and 6 hole English pendant ocarinas. But yes, not exactly every English pendant is something you can wear around your neck. :P

I would suggest "English cross-fingered ocarina" as used on Focalink's English website. It's a bit cumbersome, but it seems to satisfy every side of the view.

I agree with Kcindric that this chart should be based more on fingering than shape. Inlines for example are identical to sweet potatoes except in appearance. In that case, they can be both categorized as in the "linear" family of ocarinas, but they can both branch off into their own places as transverse and inline ocarinas. It's just as how English cross-fingered and the 9-hole cross-fingered ocarinas (like made by the Honest/Sincere) can both be categorized as cross-fingered ocarinas, but can fall into their own branches.

Does the shape of the ocarina have more to do with the playing experience than ergonomic value and comfortableness of the wrists?
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Sounds like this chart should be shaped like a family tree ... with branches.

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RicTheGrt
Transverse Ocarinist x 2
As soon as the chart is finished someone will invent a new arrangement and you start again.

The chart should be restricted to the commonest and most popular styles and leave out the exotic ones. Otherwise the discussion will last long past my lifetime!
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Kiniko
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Moonsyne
15 Feb 2010, 03:38 AM
Sounds like this chart should be shaped like a family tree ... with branches.

This idea is seconded.
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Poltergeist
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I totally agree with kcindric. There are two basic systems of fingering: linear fingering and cross-fingering. From there you could begin to differentiate, but it wouldn't lead to any helpful classification.

For instance consider the cross-fingered pendants: the Langley system uses a small hole for the left thump that allows easy accidentals for the low notes. It has 6 hols, but only goes up to d. Other pendants have a larger hole for the left thump and go up to e. Are these two types of fingering? Sure, but they're both cross-fingered.

As for my beloved song flutes: their 8 hole fingering is nearly identical to that of a 10 hole ocarina. The Tonette even has two additional holes one can drill out that are meant to be played with the thumps. With these holes the fingering of the major scale from c to high f is identical. But in the same category, of ocarinas in recorder form, there's also the gemshorn. And the fingering of the gemshorn is also linear, like that of a sweet potato ocarina, but it isn't identical.

Also: have a look at these ocarinas: Ton in Ton
They are six hole ocarinas, but they use a basically linear fingering with cross fingering for the b: Fingering chart
I suggest the following definitions. They are short and easy, and that is what a definition in a glossary should be.

If an ocarina is tuned to a scale of N different notes, than the fingering system is called CROSS-FINGERED, if the scale can be played by opening and closing a total number of less than N-1 holes.
If the total number of holes opened or closed to play the scale is N-1 or larger, than the fingering system is called LINEAR.


Notes and explanations:
1. This definition does not work for flutes and recorders, because you can get notes of the scale by overblowing. Because of that, overblown notes (if possible on the ocarina) do not count for this definition.
2. Not every ocarina must be tuned to a major scale. There are also pentatonic ocarinas for example. So the definition has to have a parameter N.
3. The F on my soprano C gemshorn is played with a forked fingering, in order to make it more similar to the recorder fingering. Still, the fingering of the gemshorn seems linear to me. And according to my definition above, it is.
4. The ocarinas of Ton-in-Ton use six holes for a major scale. C to A are played by successively removing one finger after the other. But in order to play the b, a fingering is used, that intuitively I would call cross-fingering. According to my definitions, it is.
5. Marwan Hassan, a builder of bamboo flutes, adds additional holes to his flutes to facilitate the playing of accidentals. This way you have to open two fingers simultaneously instead of one finger to play the scale. Still this seems linear to me, and according to my definition, it is.


I don't see how "sweet potato fingering" as opposed to "linear fingering" could be defined in an equally short way. That's why I believe there is no specific sweet potato fingering. But if anyone can write me down a good explanation, I might reconsider.




Edited by Poltergeist, 15 Feb 2010, 12:42 PM.
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Krešimir Cindrić


That's a very nice attempt at defining linear and non-linear fingering system. However, it seems a bit artificial to me, since it doesn't address the most important feature of a linear system (opening the holes in succession in order to play the scale).

Another bad feature of you definition is dependence on diatonic notes (as accidentals are not counted in N). However, this gets very tricky on ocarinas that are not tuned in major or minor mode.

I would recommend this definitions, which are simpler and more intuitive:

On an ocarina that uses a linear fingering system the holes are opened mostly in linear succession in order to play the notes of the scale the ocarina is tuned in. On an ocarina that uses a non-linear (English, or cross-) fingering system this is not the case, but instead certain fingering combinations are required to play the notes of a scale.


Regarding the term "sweet potato", I really dislike it. It sounds like a bad joke and it makes me think of vegetable ocarinas (look it up on youtube). I prefer the term "transverse ocarina" which belongs in a family of ocarinas that use linear fingering system.
Edited by Krešimir Cindrić, 15 Feb 2010, 01:18 PM.
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Poltergeist
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kcindric
15 Feb 2010, 01:14 PM
On an ocarina that uses a linear fingering system the holes are opened mostly in linear succession in order to play the notes of the scale the ocarina is tuned in. On an ocarina that uses a non-linear (English, or cross-) fingering system this is not the case, but instead certain fingering combinations are required to play the notes of a scale.
That would make the recorder fingering or gemshorn fingering non-linear, which is why I tried to do something else, because the recorder fingering with fork fingerings for f and h still feels linear to me.
To me, the essence of the cross-fingering is its "economical" approach, using less holes than a linear fingering would need.

There's another major difference: you couldn't build a recorder with the four holes of the English cross-fingering system. This kind of fingering is only possible on an ocarina. And any definition of "cross-fingering" should reflect this.

Also, no definition should have "certain" in it. You need to define "certain fingering combinations" before defining non-linear fingering.
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Panch
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The Whistlemaker

Okay, I've updated the chart.
Spoiler: click to toggle
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Krešimir Cindrić


Good chart! :) Five stars: * * * * * :thumbsup:

You could also include transverse Peruvians. And that transverse double looks a bit funny. But these are details :)

I started to write a tree list of ocarina types with short descriptions. It's not nearly finished. Tell me what you think and if you want, you can help me make it. It's attached to this post.
Attached to this post:
Attachments: Ocarina_classification_system.pdf (17.68 KB)
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Panch
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The Whistlemaker

I'm almost tempted to remove Peruvian completely, y'know. It's by no means a *modern* ocarina type... and the only reason it earns its spot here is due to the thousands of cheap, low-quality ocarinas you find plagueing eBay.

Nice .pdf, by the way! I think this, or a slightly modified version of, would be great accompanying text for the visual chart!
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