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Comprehensive ocarina glossary?!; We need one!
Topic Started: 10 Feb 2010, 10:57 PM (15,164 Views)
Panch
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The Whistlemaker

Hello everybody!

I think we all know pretty well now that the ocarina community's grasp of consistant terminology to be abysmal. :/
One person calls one thing this, the other calls one thing that, and really, it's just a big messy confusion.

I propose that we start a reasonably comprehensive glossary of the ocarina, with definitive terminology. Really, the ocarina deserves more than the poorly organised jumble of words we fling about to describe it. ^^;
I mean, heck, it's rare when I see anyone so confused as an ocarina newbie. The poor buggers have to get used to everyone talking about ocs in different ways! D:
Among the many advantages a glossary would give us, it would also enable us to describe specific traits of the ocarina very easily when we need to! WITHOUT having us resort to descriptive essays!

I think this should be a collaborative effort, with TONians deciding together what things should be ultimately named. I'm more than happy to draw labelled diagrams, myself!

What do you guys say?


THINK OF THE NEWBIES! :cry:
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Sigurthr
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Flutist and Ham Radio Operator. Talarđu Íslenska?

Sounds good to me! It would definitely help out those if us who are newer to ocarina too.
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GabeGT
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The Gabe
10-4 on that one.
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Krešimir Cindrić


I don't have much free time these days, but if I can help I would be happy to. :D
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Panch
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The Whistlemaker

"10-4"...?
Sorry... either that's not Aussie slang or my time in Thailand is getting me behind... >.>
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GabeGT
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The Gabe
lol :P pay no attention.
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Krešimir Cindrić


I'm not sure either, but I think it's used in radio communication (walkie-talkies) meaning "I hear you" or "affirmative"... Not sure though...
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GabeGT
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The Gabe
kcindric
10 Feb 2010, 11:09 PM
I'm not sure either, but I think it's used in radio communication (walkie-talkies) meaning "I hear you" or "affirmative"... Not sure though...
That you are right my friend :P
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Bateleur
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Meh.

One of these has already been started on David's Octalk forum, but I think that it's not too bad of an idea to start one here.

At the bare minimum, we'll need some discussion on "sweet potato" versus "transverse", also explaining modern, classic, and modified sweet potatoes accordingly (as coined by Moonsyne). I don't know if we'll be able to come to a consensus on tunings, though. Soprano C seems to be concrete and universal, but C5 through C4 seems to be such a debated range of notes. :/ I say that anything between G4 and C4 is Tenor, C5 is Alto and C4 is Bass but whatever. I'm not a musical expert. =P


Octalk's list for reference: LINK
Edited by Bateleur, 10 Feb 2010, 11:15 PM.
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Panch
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The Whistlemaker

My idea is to have the basics like that, but also delve into more, smaller details as well. Such as voicing style and components of the ocarina, which would make conversing about such details (imagine how much that'll help in the oc-making section!) a much more tolerable experience. :D
I have an example I made if you'd like to see?
Edited by Panch, 10 Feb 2010, 11:28 PM.
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Krešimir Cindrić


Since names of different ranges of ocarinas pretty much depend on the maker/seller, I wouldn't give any definitions in that department. I would, however, make a comprehensive table of different ranges and names by various makers. Something like that kissing already did some time ago, but it would have to be expanded to include more ranges and makers.
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Pyromanaic21
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the one who loves FIRE....
I'd definitely want to see something like a glossary happen. I can see it making things easier to talk about and describe. Lets do it!

though I agree that it will get a little tricky with the ranges, I think we can definitely work something out.
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Panch
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The Whistlemaker

Yeah, my main goal isn't the range so much as components of the ocarina, identifying types of ocarina, and such, which should make describing them in detail and recognising them much easier.

As an example, here's a quick diagram on voicing components and designs by me.
Posted Image

It is my intention to, if there is enough interest from the oc community, have a visual glossary of the ocarina, with labelled pictures. I would provide the initial labels, and the rest of TON will suggest changes, or point out mistakes, and such.
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Blitz
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Resident wolf...dragon...thing....wolfgon?
if we get enough as well as the right kind of people on board, this could be a great project.maybe we should go with a wiki?
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Krešimir Cindrić


Great diagram. :thumbsup:

Just one suggestion: I think the term "labium lip" is a bit silly, because the word "labium" means "lip" in Latin. :D I would simply call it "lip" or "voicing lip".

EDIT: Also, there might be confusion with a certain part of female anatomy...
Edited by Krešimir Cindrić, 10 Feb 2010, 11:55 PM.
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Panch
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The Whistlemaker

Oh, there's already an ocarina wiki! This will be a great addition once finished, though!
kcindric
10 Feb 2010, 11:53 PM
Great diagram. :thumbsup:

Just one suggestion: I think the term "labium lip" is a bit silly, because the word "labium" means "lip" in Latin. :D

Yes, I think so too, but I was just writing down how I saw it written. ^^;

I always call it just "Labium" myself, too, so it looks like we've found our first revision! XD
As for the female bodypart thing... well, this is what the blade is called on all fipple instruments, I believe! We should go with what's already been established.
Edited by Panch, 11 Feb 2010, 12:00 AM.
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GabeGT
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The Gabe
The more info out there the better. This could be a great way to gather a lot of info quickly, since there are so many active people on this forum.

*off-topic* @Panch, I know what your Ocs remind me of now... Mentos. the fruity ones. Just the pastel like colours! I seriously need to buy one when they come on the market. *off-topic*
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OcLover
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Triple Ocarinist
I'd like to add some terms to the glossary. Of course the terms / definitions are open for debate by all. These are in no particular order, just as they popped in my head.

Additions to the Ocarina Glossary:

Tonehole: Any hole that is covered by a finger or thumb that alters the pitch, these also include sub-holes.

Windway: A passage for air.

Mouth / Voicing: The open area between the windway exit and labium ramp edge. Examples of different voicing shapes are circular, ovular, rectangular, semicircular, teardrop, and triangular. AKA "Voicehole"

Mouthpiece: The part of the ocarina the player places their lips on.

Tonic: The base note played when all tone holes are covered excluding the sub-holes.

Ascending Ramp: The rising surface between the labium edge and ocarina exterior. (As viewed from the windway with the voicehole facing you.) AKA "Top Ramp"

Descending Ramp: The downward surface between the labium edge and ocarina interior. (As viewed from the windway with the voicehole facing you.) AKA "Bottom Ramp"

Labium Edge descriptions: sharp, semi-rounded, rounded, blunt

Undercutting / Undercut: Increasing the effective size of a tonehole by removing or beveling the material so that the tone hole opening is larger on the inside than on the outside of the ocarina. This will help maintain a tonehole size that can easily be covered by a finger or thumb.

Tuner: An electronic device or software for measuring audio frequency and displaying that frequency and associated musical note and octave range. Examples: 440 Hz = A4, 523.25 Hz = C5

Volume: The total interior cubic space of an ocarina.

Wall Thickness: The thickness of the ocarina wall excluding the mouthpiece area.

Contoured Tonehole: On the exterior of an ocarina, the area around a tonehole which has been shaped to accommodate the elongated roundish shape of a finger, this is usually done for toneholes with an adjacent sub-hole which will be covered by the same finger.

Sub-hole: A tonehole which when covered allows the ocarina to play lower than the tonic pitch. (Sub-tonic)



Edit: Removed spoiler tag.
Edited by OcLover, 11 Feb 2010, 03:51 PM.
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ivanduzer
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Exit, Pursued By a Bear.
I like the idea, and would like to get on board with this. Panch, I would be willing to take your glossaries and put them into a downloadable PDF file (multipaged) so that anybody could potentially have a hard copy of this glossary. Having all the glossaries in one file will also help organization a ton.
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King Ocarina
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Pére Poches Drôles
I really don't think one can make a glossary on this kind of subject.

The ocarina is a very unsophisticated instrument compared to say, a guitar. It's just a hollow lump of clay with holes.

A glossary for a guitar is feasible, as there are many, many manufactured parts with technical names (fretboard, nut, geared tuner, etc).

The ocarina is a much more ancient, simple, (what's the word?) spiritual instrument...

Guitars can be quickly machined and snapped piece A to slot B...

Ocarinas require (corny alert) love and care by their makers to turn their earthly forms into something awesome. Each ocarina holds the personality of it's maker, and aren't personalities different from one another?
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Panch
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The Whistlemaker

King Ocarina
11 Feb 2010, 06:57 AM
I really don't think one can make a glossary on this kind of subject.

The ocarina is a very unsophisticated instrument compared to say, a guitar. It's just a hollow lump of clay with holes.

A glossary for a guitar is feasible, as there are many, many manufactured parts with technical names (fretboard, nut, geared tuner, etc).

The ocarina is a much more ancient, simple, (what's the word?) spiritual instrument...

Guitars can be quickly machined and snapped piece A to slot B...

Ocarinas require (corny alert) love and care by their makers to turn their earthly forms into something awesome. Each ocarina holds the personality of it's maker, and aren't personalities different from one another?
You'll be surprised by how sophisticated ocs can get though, mate. Sure, it is essentially just a body of clay with holes, but that doesn't mean that they don't have components built into them by various makers - and plenty of termination which could do with some organisation. Having a glossary so we could have universal (or at least english-wide) consistent terms wouldn't detract from the magic of the ocarina, and would be a convenient tool for us as a community.
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l3antha
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Star Wars Elephant
Panch
11 Feb 2010, 07:34 AM
Having a glossary so we could have universal (or at least english-wide) consistent terms wouldn't detract from the magic of the ocarina, and would be a convenient tool for us as a community.
Yes, I agree with this so much. A sort of centralized terminology resource would be very helpful, and would only add to the enjoyment of the community as a whole, as it would make it easier for ocarina newbies to acquaint themselves with the lingo going on here. I think it would be great.

I think labeled diagrams would be most helpful as well, and if you'd like to enlist my drawing skyllz for some images, then I'd be more than happy to help out!
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OcLover
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Triple Ocarinist
Here's more entries for the glossary:

Strap Loop: A loop extending from the body of the ocarina where a cord or strap can be attached.

Strap Hole: A hole through the body of, but not through or interfering with the resonating chamber or voicing area of an ocarina where a cord or strap can be attached.

Resonating Chamber: The interior space of the main body of an ocarina.

Back Pressure: The force felt by a player while blowing into the mouthpiece. Too much back pressure can make the player feel like they're suffocating. Too little back pressure can make the player feel like they're emptying their lungs too quickly.
Edited by OcLover, 11 Feb 2010, 03:53 PM.
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Crowler
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emergency medical hologram
Could this be made part of the Ocarina Wiki somehow? :?
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FoxDanse
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Pendant Ocarinist x 2
Hm... Phrases such as "acute bend" come up alot while browsing. I thought this has to do with bending your neck to play higher notes, but I'm not sure at all. Maybe have a few definitions out there about what those common techniques are/how to do them? :o
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OcLover
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Triple Ocarinist
More entries for the glossary:

Acute Bend: A technique used to aid in playing the higher notes of an ocarina by bending your neck forward and bringing your chin down toward your chest while blowing through the mouthpiece. Ocarinas which exhibit airy or non-sounding higher notes when played in the head-up position can benefit from this technique.

Fingering Chart: A diagram showing the various finger positions required to play different pitches (notes) on the ocarina. The typical fingering chart will show the finger positions from lowest to highest pitch.

Range: The entire set of pitches an ocarina is capable of playing. An example would be A4 to F6. It may also refer to a non-standardized and confusing naming label which manufacturers categorize their ocarinas into. Examples of such labels are: Alto C, Tenor C, Alto F, Tenor F and so on. (If manufacturers could agree on one standard labeling convention where the pitch range equaled a naming label, such as A4 to F6 = Alto C, then it would be much easier on ocarina purchasers.)
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Panch
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The Whistlemaker

I'm glad you're so enthused, Oclover!

I'm going to have to ask you to hold onto those ideas, though! When we actually start work on the glossary, we will start applying terms to specific areas at a time, so when we compile the final glossary, it will be far easier to organise!

There seems to be plenty of people willing to adhere to a set of definitive terms... which I take as a good sign. Perhaps this project can begin taking off within the next couple of days.

I say we begin with the simple things that most everyone knows and shares agreement with - Ocarina Types. This is the most frequent topic started by newbies. Thoughts?
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l3antha
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Star Wars Elephant
As far as Ocarina Types go, I think that Moonsyne's post in the tab section is very clear and helpful. Perhaps you could link to it in the glossary?
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Panch
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The Whistlemaker

It's nice, yes, but I dislike some of the terminology used. Especially since "Classic Sweet Potato" were not the first ones invented.
We should have a fresh start, where TONians all decide together on how things should be named. :)

Also, my near OCD wish for graphic unity makes me want to draw the diagrams so they all have the same look. XD
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Krešimir Cindrić


I would like to propose a term "polyphonic double ocarina" for what some people call harmony doubles. I think term "polyphonic" is much more appropriate. The other type of double ocarinas is "extended range double ocarina".
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OcLover
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Triple Ocarinist
Everybody, please feel free to make changes to or debate the definitions I came up with.

Here's a start to the types of ocarinas:

Whistle: A single note ocarina.

Pendant: A small ocarina which is meant to be worn on a necklace.

Pendant ocarinas are known to have several fingering systems employed to play the pitches of a musical scale. The English 4 hole system which was developed in the 1960's by an Englishman, John Taylor is well suited to the size constraints of a small pendant ocarina. The English 4 hole system allows a 13 note chromatic range to be played using cross fingering and half-hole playing technique. The English 4 hole fingering system has also been modified to what is termed "extended" with the addition of one or two thumbholes which allow extra notes to be played. Other fingering systems are also used, such as 4 hole Peruvian, 8 hole Peruvian (6 on front, 2 on back), 9 hole system (7 on front, 2 on back). Note: The above mentioned list of fingering systems is not exhaustive, it is just a sample of systems that may be used on pendant ocarinas.
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l3antha
11 Feb 2010, 09:33 PM
I think that Moonsyne's post in the tab section is very clear and helpful.
Thank you. I believe you are the first person to say such.

@Panch: Classic does not denote that they came first.
It is meant as Classic as defined as Traditional American.

Like one would denote furniture, yes?

It makes sense in the framework of classic equalling simplified,
since it is an abridged version of modern sweet potato fingerings.

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l3antha
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Star Wars Elephant
Panch
11 Feb 2010, 10:04 PM
We should have a fresh start, where TONians all decide together on how things should be named.
Yes, I think you are right. It would be quite refreshing if we could all come together to compile a comprehensive and consistent fundamental terminology database that we could fluently utilize throughout the community. It would be a great resource for those who are new to the ocarina, as well as give the rest of the community a common playing ground, as far as definitions go. If we are all able to agree on the definitions that could be established in this glossary, then we will all be that much more able to understand what each poster is discussing. I really think that a definitive glossary could only benefit the goings-on of this community, and I am totally on board.

Also, I agree COMPLETELY with your idea of homogenized illustrations and labeled figures. I thought, Panch, that your images regarding voiceholes were quite fantastic and clear, so if you want to continue doing that, then GO FOR IT. It would definitely be very nice to have each illustration within the same style of all the others. However, if you become overwhelmed with the prospect of illustrating damn near every entry, then feel very welcome to call on me. I have art skyllz (I can back this up with visual proof if you deem it necessary), and I would be more than happy to assist you, in order to take a bit of the load off your back.
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Panch
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The Whistlemaker

kcindric
11 Feb 2010, 10:55 PM
I would like to propose a term "polyphonic double ocarina" for what some people call harmony doubles. I think term "polyphonic" is much more appropriate. The other type of double ocarinas is "extended range double ocarina".
That is a genius idea.

An awesome way to destinguish between those and the regular kind. I really like the name too! Just wondering, though, is there something wrong with the term "Harmony" double? As in, is the word "Harmony" somehow restrictive in a way...? I'm not entirely certain myself... personally I like the sound of "Polyphonic", but I feel that "Harmony" may be more appealing to the masses... unless there was a certain advantage to using the former.

Moonsyne
 
@Panch: Classic does not denote that they came first.
It is meant as Classic as defined as Traditional American.
I'm sorry for misunderstanding, Moonsyne. ^^;
The ocarina as an instrument isn't very old though... so I suppose that's why I immediately thought of the first ocarinas. And, please don't take offence, but refering to a 9-holed American system which... well... frankly, doesn't seem hugely popular or influential in the first place, as the classical system... it just seems America-centric to me. :(
Due to the ocarina only being around since the 19th century, I guess I always associated "classic" with "original"...

On another note, no one's ever told you your charts were helpful? That's pretty damn ridiculous! They're excellent! o.O

l3antha
 
if you become overwhelmed with the prospect of illustrating damn near every entry, then feel very welcome to call on me. I have art skyllz (I can back this up with visual proof if you deem it necessary), and I would be more than happy to assist you, in order to take a bit of the load off your back.
Thank you very much! I'm so glad a lot of people are willing to put effort into this! While I cannot imagine the work getting too tough, I'll definitely keep your offer in mind, regardless! As I'm a bit of an artist and art appreciator myself, it'd be awesome to see your work, too! Where do you have your stuff up? I'd like to see some of your art!
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l3antha
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Star Wars Elephant
Panch
12 Feb 2010, 12:06 AM
Thank you very much! I'm so glad a lot of people are willing to put effort into this! While I cannot imagine the work getting too tough, I'll definitely keep your offer in mind, regardless! As I'm a bit of an artist and art appreciator myself, it'd be awesome to see your work, too! Where do you have your stuff up? I'd like to see some of your art!
Well, I don't have like a personal website or anything(aside from LJ), but I will link you to a few examples of my skyllz right here:

An oil painting study

I few drawings I did of a clarinet:
One
Two
Three
Four

A still-life drawing in graphite

If you would like more images, then please, let me know. I would be more than happy to supply them.

I am VERY open to conversation and criticism and whatnot (that is the primary way that an artist can improve!), so, just fyi, in the future, if I DO end up drawing out something for le glossary, and it is not up to par, then TELL ME and I will FIX IT. I'd much rather get harsh criticism to guide me in the right direction, versus superpositive100%A+ feedback that only addressed good things in my pieces. PLEASE TELL ME if what I do is not what you need! I will strive to improve! I will not hold it against you!
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Nixie
Double Ocarinist x 2
I think we should have an art thread somewhere, one that evolves, one where everyone can improve and share knowledge ect!

But anyway, I'd like to say that I prefer the term Harmony, because that is what they are made to do, harmonize!

And Ocarinas arent old? they are some of the oldest known instruments, with examples found all over the world!

But putting up a sticky somewhere would be a great idea.
and l3antha, those are some good skills! i love the painting and the graphite still life.

With the clarinet drawings, were you aiming to be technical?
Edited by Nixie, 12 Feb 2010, 12:41 AM.
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l3antha
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Star Wars Elephant
Nixie
12 Feb 2010, 12:38 AM
With the clarinet drawings, were you aiming to be technical?
Yes! Those are only a few of the drawings I did that were required for an assignment in one of my classes...We were supposed to choose one item, and then create one page of drawings of it for each week of the semester (18 weeks, I think? So ~18 pages of drawings of the same object). I chose the clarinet because it could be disassembled and set up in a bazillion different ways, and that took a bit of stress off of me (my other idea for an object was a BRICK! That would have been SO DIFFICULT! I'm glad I changed my mind!).

It was a good project, and I think I would very much like to repeat a similar project with an ocarina. Try to test myself to see an ocarina in ~twenty different perspectives!!! Challenging!
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Nixie
Double Ocarinist x 2
That is a brilliant way to improve drawing of space. And also a great chance to improve economy of line and line quality! I just wondered if they were 'technical' drawings because the line is so consistant. You could try and describe the surface and tone of an object with the use of line, and sometimes use no line at all to describe the surface!

I'm not sure if that makes sense?
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OcLover
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Triple Ocarinist
:Cough, cough: Back on topic:

Here's a few words on the transverse ocarina. Everyone, please feel free to make corrections or add changes as needed.

Transverse: An ocarina with a mouthpiece which is or is nearly perpendicular to the main body of the ocarina, such that a players breath is blown across the width of the ocarina. Some modern day ocarinas may have a mouthpiece which is extremely angled up to 45 degrees, but are still considered a transverse ocarina.

The transverse ocarina has a great following among ocarina players and has been in existence since the 1850's. Only a few "modern" fingering systems have been developed or improved upon since then and the most notable are the 10 hole Donati system, named after the "father" of the transverse ocarina, Giuseppe Donati of Italy, and the 12 hole fingering system by Takashi Aketagawa of Japan in the late 1920's. Aketagawa was able to improve the Donati 10 hole system by adding 2 extra toneholes which enabled the ocarina to play 2 sub-tonic notes.

The beauty of both the Donati and Aketagawa systems is that the musical scale can be played easily by uncovering toneholes in a sequential pattern that is easily learned by most beginners. Other fingering systems for the transverse ocarina do exist, like 7 hole and 9 hole, which are basically the Donati system with fewer holes which limit the playing range of the ocarina.

The English 4 hole and 6 hole extended system remain a popular choice for smaller transverse ocarinas. This is not to say that the English 4 hole system is strictly relegated to smaller sized ocarinas, it can easily be used on bigger ocarinas as well. Still other fingering systems exist, like 8 hole Peruvian (6 on top, 2 on bottom) for instance.

Note: The above mentioned fingering systems is not exhaustive, it is just a sample of systems that may be used on transverse ocarinas.
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Deleted User
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Panch
12 Feb 2010, 12:06 AM
refering to a 9-holed American system which... well... frankly, doesn't seem hugely popular or influential in the first place, as the classical system... it just seems America-centric to me. :(
Differences in dialect is always interesting.

I thought that calling it American or Classic American would be too America-centric,
but realized that you were thinking classical in the fine art tradition while I was thinking classic as in simple.

As this list grows, I think there will arise several instances where more than one word is used to describe the same or similar thing. I wonder if it would be erroneous to choose one label (the most popular one) and dismiss the rest.

Maybe having the most common or appropriate name, but also list slang or less common labels.
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ivanduzer
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Exit, Pursued By a Bear.
I agree with Moonsyne. Maybe you could include a term, and then also include an AKA line. Don't forget, the English language is the largest language in terms of word counts, and it is growing more and more everyday as new words are coined. Therefore, such an AKA section of each entry that is easily updatable would be invaluable as new ways to describe ocs are coined.
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OcLover
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Triple Ocarinist
NOTE: My entries for this new glossary may be added to the ocarina wiki (Crowler mentions one). If TON has an ocarina wiki, I've never seen the link for it anywhere. You would think it would be added to the group of links at the top of each page (Active Topics, BBCode, Search and so on).

Alright, here's my final entry for types of ocarinas, the inline. Please make any corrections / changes as needed.

Somebody else can pickup the remaining types or just add to what I already wrote... doubles, triples, quads, double harmonies / polyphonics, phase shifting, noise canceling, time traveling, and so on.

Inline: An ocarina with a mouthpiece which is parallel or inline with the main body of the ocarina, such that a players breath is blown along the length of the ocarina. Some pendant ocarinas fall into this category as well.

The inline ocarina is a relatively new development when compared to the long history of the transverse ocarina. The inline borrows the fingering methodology of the transverse but places the toneholes in parallel directly across from or slightly offset from each other on the top of the ocarina, plus two toneholes to be covered by the thumbs underneath. Current commercially available inline ocarinas have either 9, 10 or 12 toneholes. The 12 hole version having the greatest range. Many players find the inline ocarina comfortable to hold and play. In particular those players who have played either the penny whistle or recorder may really enjoy the inline ocarina.
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Turbo852
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Looking for the ocarina wiki? Check the link in my sig!

There are many pages already made just waiting for content like this to be added!

Have a look at some of these pages:
Types of Ocarinas
Multi-Chambered Ocarina
Ocarinas in Popular Culture
The Dictionary Category
Edited by Turbo852, 12 Feb 2010, 07:32 AM.
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shirf02
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Enjoys the Disney Renaissance
Kcindric
 
I would like to propose a term "polyphonic double ocarina" for what some people call harmony doubles.


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kcindric
11 Feb 2010, 10:55 PM
I would like to propose a term "polyphonic double ocarina" for what some people call harmony doubles.
I've seen them called 'duplets' around Asian sites including Suimin's Ocarina Road, the Woodsound galleries and forum, YouTube descirptions, ect. I tend to say 'duplet', because that seems to be more the standard term than 'Harmony Double or 'Polyphonic Double Ocarina'... Plus it's shorter.
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