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Docjazz4's withdrawal from OU
Topic Started: 5 May 2008, 10:11 PM (6,527 Views)
shadowyi
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dysfunctional family
Quote:
 
Hi everyone,
These last 7 or 8 months have been a battle for me mentally and spiritually because I believe that ocarinas became more than just a hobby…they became a major distraction and even a hindrance in my Christian walk.

I started making videos because I wanted to share the possibilities of the ocarina with the world, but it’s escalated into something that I shouldn’t be a part of anymore.

Though I won’t go into details, I’ve made some wrong choices and I’ve repented for them. There are several rumors going around that I will not address because I don’t need to open any more doors for criticism, persecution, or scrutiny; but I do apologize if anyone has been affected by these rumors.

Although this has been a very discouraging time for me, it has been a slap in the face to know where my priorities are…and I just placed them back in Christ :)

I wish you all the best,
Docjazz


Thought the TON community should know since the admin and mod staff won't be able to see his post on OU.
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flip
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"the switch"
It is surprising but not all that unexpected (if that makes any sense at all). I guess that means that the forums can and will focus on what they are about: ocarinas.
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shadowyi
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dysfunctional family
A thought, is it possible the forums will come back together into one forum? :wacko:
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flip
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"the switch"
shadowyi
May 5 2008, 09:22 PM
A thought, is it possible the forums will come back together into one forum? :wacko:

Doubtful.

But I do hope that some people will be able to return to OU and that Moonsyne will repost her guides and that Myung's tabs will be back there too. But it may be too early to tell.
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DeepRed
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Taking a break from Signature requests
It would be nice if the forums came back together, but I agree, highly doubtful.

*Dang I only just noticed how irritatingly big my avatar is...another thing to fix on the to-do list...don't like this avatar anyway*
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Deleted User
Deleted User

I believe that I am willing to repost all my guides
if the people who were banned are restored.

They might have other amends that they
would want to be made to them first.
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lamparin1905
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Tomato's Young Padawan
I think this is really sad... David has been for me and for many people in this forum, the main reason why we bought or got to know the ocarina.

I think he shouldnt leave the forum he had dreamed of
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zeph456
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Beginner
lamparin1905
May 5 2008, 11:52 PM
I think this is really sad... David has been for me and for many people in this forum, the main reason why we bought or got to know the ocarina.

I think he shouldnt leave the forum he had dreamed of

I agree, David was the first person I found on youtube when I was trying to get info on the ocarina and inspired me to teach myself how to play. I hope he finds what he's looking for
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Mikael
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Docjazz has lost all my respect for him over the last few months. The way he ran things at OU made me very uncomfortable and the fact that he banned me from OU along with the other admins and mods here at TON I find extremely distasteful. Furthermore there is proof that he was involved in the hacking of the forum and this is inexcuseable. While I do not resent him it is probably for the best that he withdraws from OU. Hopefully now we can focus on what we are really here for, the ocarina.

Thank you for bringing us this information, shadowyi.
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shadowyi
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dysfunctional family
No problem, I view this community as my home. :)

I have refrained from elaborating on the rumors at OU out of respect for who is obviously so many people's idol, but since I'm here, I agree with you, inasmuch as I can since I've only been on these forums for five days. :TON:
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Deleted User
Deleted User

It saddens me that there is still the sweep it under the rug mentality going on when details are not mentioned.

Some might even suggest that 'affected by these rumors' part insinuates that the fault is clearly somebody elses.

:rupee: :rupee:
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Mikael
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Moonsyne
May 6 2008, 02:58 AM
It saddens me that there is still the sweep it under the rug mentality going on when details are not mentioned.

Some might even suggest that 'affected by these rumors' part insinuates that the fault is clearly somebody elses.

:rupee: :rupee:

Yes that part of his post made me a bit angry. But then again I'm used to him being that way now and there is not much to do about it.
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lamparin1905
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Tomato's Young Padawan
Rintintin
May 6 2008, 01:47 AM
Docjazz has lost all my respect for him over the last few months. The way he ran things at OU made me very uncomfortable and the fact that he banned me from OU along with the other admins and mods here at TON I find extremely distasteful. Furthermore there is proof that he was involved in the hacking of the forum and this is inexcuseable. While I do not resent him it is probably for the best that he withdraws from OU. Hopefully now we can focus on what we are really here for, the ocarina.

Thank you for bringing us this information, shadowyi.

I dont want to open this discussion again, but i dont really know what happened... i mean... what was the reason that triggered that "unknown" behavior in David?

i mean... it is human to sometimes feel like taking revenge or feel extremely angry if someone has done something bad to us...

im not trying to take any side... but sometimes we need to hear both sides of the story
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stevtomato
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The Splattered Tomato

Hmm, yeah I expected that. Him being a really good Christian I sort of know that he would do this in the end. But please, let's not forget that through him, many know about Ocarinas.

While he has lost my respect, I still am grateful for him. His contribution to the ocarina world is great. The people in the bible always go through this problem, power and fame gave them greed and I think he had been slightly strayed too. I just hope that he would be able to do both Ocarina and Christ, with knowing that Christ is still his priority.

My prayers go to him. I do hope he will not stop his contribution to the Ocarina world (I don't think he can, XD).

Other than that, The Ocarina Network will still be TON and running. Too much work had been done here. I do hope that people can have two homes =D
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Mikael
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"lamparin1905
 
I dont want to open this discussion again, but i dont really know what happened... i mean... what was the reason that triggered that "unknown" behavior in David?


Quite frankly I am not sure what triggered it. But I don't think there were any reason why he would want revenge. There were some pretty heated discussions and I as well as others gave him critique for the way he handled the forum. Other than that I don't know.
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stevtomato
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The Splattered Tomato

I think I'll move this to Official announcement.

Please take that as an honour to DocJazz, to show that he is not hated.
Don't take that as a victory move.

I'm moving this because it's a big news. And we want to really co-exist peacefully with OU.

TON admins and mods, please don't veto what I did.
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shadowyi
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dysfunctional family
Umph, I don't know how long it will stay up/how long it will stay unlocked, but there is now a poll at OU asking docjazz to stay. One line that concerned me was
Quote:
 
I would ignore the rumors going on and start clean

by the poll starter. Being a pessimist, this could turn ugly. :unsure:

Lamparin there is another post in our announcements that explains the views being expressed in this thread.
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Deleted User
Deleted User

The hardest thing to do in life is admit your shortcomings, relinquish control,
and continue on after doing both. I pray that he has that strength.

With vindication and recompense comes forgiveness.
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Mikael
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I wouldn't worry about it too much shadowyi. There are of course people that don't know the whole story and take Docjazz' word without hesitation or further investigation into the matter.

What matters is that we have our new place here and they can think whatever they want over at OU. We will not have any more quarrels with Docjazz (and STL) now that we have relocated.
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Turbo852
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It's probably for the best.

I do think that he could remain part of the community, but his talents do not lie in administrating as much as helping people.

In any event, I think a break is probably what he needs. I think that he should eventually come back though, but more as a regular member than staff.
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stevtomato
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The Splattered Tomato

Turbo852
May 6 2008, 01:26 PM
It's probably for the best.

I do think that he could remain part of the community, but his talents do not lie in administrating as much as helping people.

In any event, I think a break is probably what he needs. I think that he should eventually come back though, but more as a regular member than staff.

You are fast becoming one of the people listed in my favourite people list, not that I literally have one. That was well said. I do think he should stay in the ocarina community.

What he had done was administrating and it seemed like heaps of controversies happened in that area. Leaving OU is just an extreme case. Rather than leaving OU, resigning as an Admin would be a better choice.

I do hope that he would stay at OU, at least as a member. Not that I care, I mean him staying there as an admin would be ok too.

Rumours. Rumours. Rumours. I do not understand the word choice here. Why did he say rumour?
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kissing
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tyrannical dictator

It is a little disappointing to see him go away for something like this.
All it would have taken is to be a little more open about the truth and apologise for the things he did. Unfortunately, history shows us that this isn't his way of dealing with things, so it is no big surprise.

But I do understand that he wanted to leave the community on a positive note. And perhaps in the name of peace, it is better in some ways.

I will move on and TON will move on as long as the words he chose for his departure does not stir misinformed controversy against us.


At this point, I don't think neither of us have much respect for each other as people. However til the end, I think we still have some respect for each other when it comes to purely ocarinas.

He did give birth to OU, where a lot of our members originated from, and he also had a lot to do with the creation of TON. While I was never a big fan of his videos, his Group song video was my initial motivation to play on youtube and improve. I still remember the night that I posted my first video (OU Group Song 1), and the whole new world that it opened up for me.

I don't hate him, or have lasting scorn, but more a sentimental pity and the feeling you get at the end of a spectacular thriller movie. All that drama packed into the short time..and now it's over.


I bid farewell to the most influential figure in the youtube ocarina community.
I do have a gut feeling that he's not really gone though. He will visit the forums, at least to keep an eye on what's going on. And perhaps even return....as a changed man?
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Awells88
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Transverse Ocarinist x 2
Im pretty sure he will still be active on his YouTube account...
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beltino500
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Transverse Ocarinist x 5
Ocarinar
May 6 2008, 04:11 PM
Im pretty sure he will still be active on his YouTube account...

He'll have to be, if he still wants to be a partner and continue to get paid for his videos
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stevtomato
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The Splattered Tomato

=.= I think his love for the ocarina is the motivation there too
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vtxrider3
Beginner
I like him. I'm a simple minded man who has only recently started practicing the Ocarina. My daughter bought my first one and I love it. I have no idea why Mr. Docjazz4 decided to go away...but like I said, I liked him. What a wonderful talent he has. Anywho...I'm hoping everyone enjoys the music and I'm hoping I learn to play in a manner fit to listen to some day. What a wonderful dream to sit in my backyard playing, or playing for my family and realize that they want to hear my playing. What a wonderful fantasy. I hope it comes true.
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mehido
Beginner
I don't know if it is just me or my twisted sense of morality, but... doesn't this all seem senseless and petty?

I apologize for my blunt observations, but can a loosely knit society such as ocarinists (by this I mean the small numbers involved, and no offense meant) be built upon a foundation of finger pointing? Both sites, UO and TON seem to contain at least a slight bias, and this is seen by people who are newcomers (such as myself). And honestly, it makes me not want to communicate in any such way with a community that is quick to turn its back. On either side.

Docjazz was the reason I seriously considered the Ocarina as an outlet of expression. Regardless of his preferred Ocarina brand (STL, which many seem to criticize him for), did he still not attempt to forge a community of united ocarinists? We all, even if our ability to admit it is limited, contain a bias towards a certain style or brand in most aspects of life. He had an idea of uniting the people who play the ocarina... and he had some success. When the idea came to fruition, the proposal of spreading the community came in to being... but when did division?

I will never understand the feelings of those directly involved. Often emotions cloud reason and logic. My intentions are not to cast any guilt or blame upon either party, but is all this animosity worth the loss of new members to a divide in an English speaking ocarina community?

As a newcomer, I realize that my voice is considered very low profile. However, I hope that you have at least taken some of what I have witnessed to heart... this situation truly is saddening. I have come to notice that some members of both communities are religious. I myself don't put much worth into a form of higher spirit, however the teachings of said Christian values will tell you many things such as turn the other cheek and knock the dust from your boots. Putting religion aside, and instead applying your own moral judgments, should the parties involved not seek a true and trust filled apology from both fronts? I say this not in defense of anyone, bu... given my background in computers, the "hacker evidence" presented could easily be misrepresented and even faked. I apologize again for this blatant and unrestrained flow of words, but I felt that it needed to be said.

These are my opinions of the matter, and I wish you all the best in your future endeavorers. Again, I apologize if I offended anyone... this was not my intent. I only hoped to help resolved a matter that seemed unnecessary.

On a side note, a song that I could not remove from my thoughts while writing this post is Korn - Wake Up.
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Deleted User
Deleted User

Welcome to our forum newbie mehido. Express your opinions as you will! They are welcome enough. Here, nobody gets banned for them... or banned at all without fair and repeated warnings.
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kissing
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tyrannical dictator

I appreciate your piece of mind Mehido. I can understand your frustration and disbelief from what you are seeing as a newcomer. It is also good to see that you voice your opinions strongly - that is totally encouraged in this forum :)


As you said, Docjazz was great in that he started an ocarina community and encouraged many people (myself included) to join the fun. There is no doubt about the positive things he did, and nothing will change the fact his contribution was a great milestone to the online ocarina community.

I am sorry that the recent events regarding him seem very saddening to newcomers, but unfortunately it's what we believe to be the truth and TON is not the kind of place that will hide the truth for the sake of reputation. We did not do it to give him a bad name, but to present to the members of this forum of what had happened.

There is so much more that could be discussed regarding these matters - but I think it would be better to move on and talk about ocarinas :) Lasting controversy after his departure would be the last thing that Docjazz would have wanted. I think that's one thing him and I could agree on ;)

Let us return to the true purpose of these forums :music: .

Best Regards,

Sam.
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stevtomato
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The Splattered Tomato

I do think it's pointless and it's also to the point of grave exaggeration. We have no need of any of the dispute that had happened in the past. I do think that everybody should be blamed for it, for I don't believe that any actions of any sides did not affect the situation, whether worse or better, at all.

It is true that part of the reason to make another Ocarina related forum is due to the dispute we had. But it's also because we want to make a newer and fresher community that we dream of too. Like moving out from a parent's house. We, however, had no intention to withdraw from Ocarinas United. In fact, many of us admins and moderators were still posting in OU even after TON was launched. Unfortunately, due to some situations we could not go back to OU anymore. By that, I don't mean that it's entirely their fault that that happened, but it's also due to our fault.

I know that the information and so called "proof" we have is also very small. We, however have reasons to believe that it's true, aside from the information that we had published. We will never publish such devastating news if we couldn't be sure of it. But once again, it's posted not to condemn David but to inform the members of what had been happening in the forum lately. We would do nothing to speak bad of somebody's name for the sake of revenge or mean intentions.

I do also know that there seem to be a great deal of hypocrisy in my writing and I do apologise for not being able to express myself clearly. I believe we are in the situation where we can't explain. In the situation where things that we say seem like excuses and I do agree that that is partly our fault too.

I also do know that this released information can cause a great deal of worry and uneasiness especially to the new members of The Ocarina Network.

I would like to apologise, on behalf of The Ocarina Network and it's admins and moderators for anything that we have done wrong in the past. I would really wish that TON could co-exist peacefully, depending on each other, with OU. I do hope that David will come back to OU. I really hope so. There are a great deal of planning that he had done for OU. His vision for OU is just awesome for the future of Ocarinas and it would be a great shame if he were to leave that all behind.

Other than that, we really should not think of this any more. We should put it aside and talk about Ocarinas and Music.
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Chazz
Beginner
So he is leaving the forum to worship a mythe.. Hell, that makes a lot of sense!
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mehido
Beginner
To kissing: I view this as an outsider looking in, and without bias. As expressed previously, my feelings may never reciprocate those involved because of my distance from the occurring events. I only respond based on what I have read: from both UO and TON. I defend Docjazz on the grounds of experience and observation with small communities such as this. Such a schism often results in a slowing of overall growth, and is often mortal to a process.

To stevtomato: If both sides are at some sort or fault, for better or worse, should not both sides hold some sort of responsibility towards reconciliation? I know I'm only posting here and not UO (sadly, I have very little free time recently, and have only begun to experience an excess of it) but it seems this forum sees much more traffic (active users), and holds the keys to a combined effort. This forum still houses the accusations of guilt towards Docjazz in its announcement section. Even though these findings seem just (as exposing most vigilante acts would), people who roam both forums soon find themselves picking sides: UO or TON. Does this not further lead to a divide?

I'm to here to say Docjazz is a saint: he is human, and humans are always capable of evil. But to not forgive any act, however great or small, to someone who helped to create an online community such as this seems far fetched. To err is human, to obey is mechanic,

And my bias of the information only stems from other hoaxes that I have witnessed... again, that is not to say there is no truth in your claims, however many questions about said information could be raised. If one has basic understanding of networking within a college setting, then one can assume that most campuses across the US (I know most around here anyway) share connectivity through a router. This means many users share a single IP address, one that will resolve to the same location (a university in Texas, for example). Also, it is entirely possible to spoof an IP address, or edit a webpage to display the information you want through HTML. My apologies, but I've been around the net a few too many times to trust information such as this at first glance,

Regardless of the validity of said information, and as stated previously, does it truly aid in the betterment of the community? It seems to me to add a conspiracy element to the picture and scare new members away with the hope they can avoid being caught in the middle.

And I agree, we should speak of music. But while messages such as this continue to float between communities and further distance them, how can we. Such matters are difficult when left unresolved, and a certain degree of bitterness can develop.
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Deleted User
Deleted User

I see this as a resolution to a previous tension. I can understand how somebody new to the forum can feel the way that you do. Although it could have been an ideallic conflict resolution, what transpired resulted in a solid bonding of a cummunity. It is sad that new members wandering in might be wary because of this thread, we should not invalidate the those feeling by removing it.

I wish that it will slowly die down on it's own with no need for such actions as removing or locking. They have formed such a negative picture in my mind of domineering intolerance due to recent events.
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kissing
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tyrannical dictator

Quote:
 
To kissing: I view this as an outsider looking in, and without bias. As expressed previously, my feelings may never reciprocate those involved because of my distance from the occurring events. I only respond based on what I have read: from both UO and TON. I defend Docjazz on the grounds of experience and observation with small communities such as this. Such a schism often results in a slowing of overall growth, and is often mortal to a process.


I think you are misinterpreting the situation. This "tension" has been around for a long time now, and finally we have been able to resolve it. The problem is not unresolved for any of the existing members, so I don't really see how it should be a big problem for new members. I think your misunderstanding arises from trying to associate this happening with other events/experiences you have had in the past elsewhere.

Our evidence is pretty solid, given the fact that we've confirmed it with other sources independent from us AND Docjazz himself, has admitted in several incidences via email and public messages admitting to have read our private discussions in the Admin-only forum. This does not correlate at all to your theory that the hacking was all faked.

Furthermore, as I said on my first post of this topic that you may or may not have read - it would have been better if Docjazz had been more open about the facts, than leave things unclear and hazy at OU with his very vague "last post" referring to "rumours" :unsure:

Quote:
 
But while messages such as this continue to float between communities and further distance them, how can we. Such matters are difficult when left unresolved, and a certain degree of bitterness can develop.



As far as I can see, there are no "unresolved" matters at TON.
OU appears to be keeping quiet about these matters, and that is their choice. But I guarantee you, if you confronted this issue with a moderator or administrator of OU who has been keeping up with the events, he would not be able to deny what we have found at TON.

When stevtomato talked about 'faults on both sides', he was simply going the extra mile for peace and refers to the arguments that occured prior to this matter (which were merely sharing opposing opinions and disagreeing with eachother). However, the issue of our forum's admin/moderator board being breached is something different entirely and I think it has been dealt with as it should have.

That said, I do take your concerns that having this information posted can be perceived badly by uninformed new members. It is in our best interest to arrange with the leaders of OU for reconciliation. Afterall, the problems have only existed between Docjazz and TON members, not between OU and TON. None of our members were hated on OU, in fact a lot of TON's full time members were the most appreciated members at OU before coming to TON.
Docjazz may be the creator, but he does not equal OU.

We still stand by the decisions we have made against the offences that have been linked to Docjazz. Whether he apologises to us is his decision.




Best Regards,

Sam.
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stevtomato
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The Splattered Tomato

I'll have to say again that I still do think that David is not entirely in the fault. Such information in our announcement section has already been posted and we have no intentions to pull it down because we have decided to put it up there. We are responsible for giving such information.

Picking side issue, I still do think that people can come to both. Again, I have to remind you that we used to go to both forums. Even sam (Kissing) used to go the Ocarinas United, amongst many other TON admins+mods. It is possible to be together. Our plans before launching TON was to put links in both forums to each other. Unfortunately, that seems a bit far fetched now ever since David got the access to the part of the forum that was only for Admins and Moderators of TON to see, before TON was even launched to the public. Naturally, if any opportunity of having the unity in diversity between OU and TON arise, we would embrace it.

That said, I have to say that some of the admins and moderators of OU had said our side of the story and apologised to David.

I do not want him to resign from OU and I do hope that he changed his mind.

I don't really care anymore about IP addresses and the proofs we have. If that is David or not David, I don't care and I stand by my belief that I do not agree with that part of the thing he did. Other than that, I should say that I had started liking him, when talking with him and Sam on the night he politely asked Sam to leave OU, despite the differences we had.

And yes, I agree that it is nearly impossible for some people to ignore this issue. I, however, have done my best to handle this situation. I don't think it's wise to close and delete these topics, and yet, I don't think it's wise to let it continue too. On top of that, as the other mods/admins had said, I think this is a resolved issue.

I want to write an email to Docjazz about his resignation from OU. I will post them here when it's done.

Other than that, I hope for the reconcilliation between OU and TON.
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teidon
Double Ocarinist x 2
Docjazz were probably the biggest reason why I got in to ocarinas. His talent kind of like sold me. Of course Zelda had it's own part, but when you hear someone playing the real instrument and is actually really good at it, it makes a big impression to you.

But then, Docjazz's actions as the leader/admin of OU forum has greatly reduced my respect for him. All the mindless bannings etc.


To mehido: I do agree with your opinions. But there's more to the story than you seem to know. For example Docjazz's biasment towards STL Ocarinas. I know that everyone is always biased for something and that we are all just humans, but Docjazz let his biasment affect his moderation in OU forum - He for example banned a certain member because of that. Though that member did have his own role in the banning too, but still I'd say he were banned because he didn't promote STL as much as he "should have" but he instead "promoted" other ocarina makers too.

Also your point about networking is very much true. It's true that everyone in one campus might be using the same IP, but the thing here is that this so called "hacker" were using two totally different IPs (one starting with 58 and other with 24) and both of those IPs are connected to Docjazz in more than one place. But even if Docjazz had nothing to do with the "hacking" how did he get the information that is only available for admins/mods of TON? He has said in more than one place that he has "discovered, the leaders of TON have been badmouthing me and the Oc community for several months now" (direct copy from one email he send to admins/mods of OU forum, I'm mod there). Well, one of the admins/mods of TON could ofcourse have told him... but still, nothing gives him reason to ban all admins/mods of TON from OU forum (and saying that they were "politely asked to leave") for actions said persons did in another forum and even there the discussions aren't visible for normal members.

So while I for one very much would like to see OU and TON getting along... it's little difficult when the leader of the other forum (OU) so strongly wants to split the two (by banning admins/mods of TON). Of course now that Docjazz no longer runs OU, it's possible that there be peace between the two.
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Myung
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= Mighty Mohawkus =
Thank you Teidon for writing exactly what I think about the situation as well.
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shadowyi
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dysfunctional family
And my thanks to kissing and teidon for writing what I wanted to express as well. I'm only a newcomer and don't know much about past history, but I feel I know enough to draw my own conclusions. And really, none of us can change the past. We can only decide what conclusions we'd like to draw from current evidence and how to move on from there. I've decided to keep what I feel in the back of my mind and move on towards creating music, as have many others of TON have decided to do. :)
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Aryah
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bard ♫♪
I like that this forum doesn't continuously lock threads, or hide them, sweeping them under the rug so to speak. Freedom of speech! :P :)

I like Moonsyne's idea of just letting it die down on it's own, because I know it will. Now say if a year later someone tries to resurrect the thread, then I'd think it might be time to lock it...

Though I agree that the information provided could have been falsified to sway any that would pick sides to choose TON, and I have extensive experience with drama queens and kings that I can easily identify them (unfortunately my entire in-laws are... *sigh*) and am/was wary that this was the case, I am grown up enough to formulate my own opinions and thoughts on a matter, instead of taking what someone else says to be the absolute truth.

I've always tried to keep an objective view in matters such as these, though I guess looking back they might have looked like I was a "fangirl", like others I'm not perfect and sometimes have difficulty expressing what I mean to say in words..

Though I also agree that posting the information was possibly questionable, I also see the Admin/Moderator's point in wanting to let their members be aware of the problem, and provide them with all the information that they did have on the matter. And I respect and appreciate that they did that. I hate being left in the dark and treated like an inferior.

Docjazz posted his farewell on the OU forums, and in that post he admitted to doing some wrong things. Now whether that is the hacking, reading private information, abusing his power as an Admin to ban people without warning, who knows. But the way I see it, all of those things are wrong, and whichever he did doesn't really matter, since he did admit to doing something wrong. I have no religious beliefs, and though I admire those who are capable of forgiving, I stick to my own beliefs, which means I am in discretion of who I forgive or don't forgive. I still think Docjazz is probably a decent guy, and is an AWESOME ocarinist, that's why I'm still subscribed to his YouTube channel, but because of his actions I'll no longer wish to interact with him.

As for his decision to leave OU, that is entirely his decision and I don't think it's anyone elses place to say he shouldn't have left, or ask him to come back. I believe whole-heartedly in living ones own life, the way they see fit.
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tuneofwind
Transverse Ocarinist x 5
Chazz
May 7 2008, 02:34 AM
So he is leaving the forum to worship a mythe.. Hell, that makes a lot of sense!

Uhh... myth?? LOL. Religion is not a myth its a belief and can be true. Heck..It is true, I won't go in details.
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Awells88
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Transverse Ocarinist x 2
tuneofwind
May 7 2008, 07:19 PM
Chazz
May 7 2008, 02:34 AM
So he is leaving the forum to worship a mythe.. Hell, that makes a lot of sense!

Uhh... myth?? LOL. Religion is not a myth its a belief and can be true. Heck..It is true, I won't go in details.

Amen. ;)
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ForestsRequiem
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Formerly Ocarinaman333

Ocarinar
May 7 2008, 07:42 PM
tuneofwind
May 7 2008, 07:19 PM
Chazz
May 7 2008, 02:34 AM
So he is leaving the forum to worship a mythe.. Hell, that makes a lot of sense!

Uhh... myth?? LOL. Religion is not a myth its a belief and can be true. Heck..It is true, I won't go in details.

Amen. ;)

I will Amen your Amen! B)
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Myung
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= Mighty Mohawkus =
I will counter-amen your double-amen with my heathen spell XD

Uhm seriously guys let's not turn this topic into a religious debate...

What is truth for one is not truth for another :poke:
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ForestsRequiem
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Formerly Ocarinaman333

You are right Myung! Sorry for getting off topic
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Deleted User
Deleted User

My granny once said "It's between you and God. Try to keep it that way."

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