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| Mandatory music education? | |
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| Topic Started: May 4 2008, 02:51 PM (734 Views) | |
| shadowyi | May 4 2008, 02:51 PM Post #1 |
[music of paradox]
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A comment about reading sheet music VS tabs made me think that if we had mandatory music education, the world would be a lot more music literate. ..or would it just create theory haters? |
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| DeepRed | May 4 2008, 03:22 PM Post #2 |
Official TON Signature Maker!
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Here in the UK music education is obligatory. Singing and simple instruments such as recorders or tinwhistles in primary school (ages 4-10) plus the option to choose any instruments to study for free in after school classes. In secondary school we had to study music and theory up until GCSE level (16) |
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| tuneofwind | May 4 2008, 05:47 PM Post #3 |
something else
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Well. In the US. It is mandatory to have 1 year of fine arts. (Studio art class, introduction music, intermediate music, band, symphony band, etc.) |
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| shadowyi | May 4 2008, 06:22 PM Post #4 |
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[music of paradox]
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Oh. Hmm. If this is the case, how do people graduate with no knowledge of how to read music at all? :huh: |
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| Moonsyne | May 4 2008, 06:44 PM Post #5 |
Creatively Processing
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Back when I was in Middle School we did Fine Arts rodeo style, where everyone took woodworking, arts crafts, cooking, sewing, and shop (just in different orders) but what was taught was minimal and more busy time in my opinion. |
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| ImmortalOffspring | May 4 2008, 07:10 PM Post #6 |
One with the floor
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Well, I barely remember my one year with the recorder, if it was that much but... We only learned simple, easy songs which could be played without any kind of sheet music. And believe me, those things could kill when put in the same room. Imagine if you will, a sound so horrible you would thank the man who in his mad ramblings cut you down with a dull school-scissor. But yeah, some kind of education in reading sheet music would be nice, but I think only the truly interested would learn and not forget everything the moment they leave the classroom. |
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| shadowyi | May 4 2008, 07:30 PM Post #7 |
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[music of paradox]
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That's cool, at least people would have been exposed to reading music and know what that is. I was performing on my flute once and someone walked up to me afterwards, pointed at my sheet music, and say "what's that?" I don't think I ever picked my jaw up since. I personally feel that reading music is analogous to being able to read, period. Folks need to be music literate, but that could be my extreme interest in music talking. At the very least learning to read music would use another part of our brain, and goodness knows us 'TV generation' needs to use our brains more. :P And see, I hate it when fine arts education is shunted into 'creative time' or 'time when the kids will shut up'. It's this type of attitude towards arts in elementary schools that make children look to traditional subjects of math, science, etc. as 'real, practical subjects'. Or think arts are for the airy fairy people and aren't hallmarks of 'true men' (I actually get this from some guy friends :rolleyes: ). Those who are into the arts are just as serious and dedicated as say, a chemist or engineer. Just because I like singing doesn't mean I'm wasting my time. Grr. Sorry for the semi rant, this seems to have touched on a touchy subject for me. |
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| ImmortalOffspring | May 4 2008, 08:35 PM Post #8 |
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One with the floor
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Aye, people would probably be happier if they could read and played music. But then again, there's people who play entirely by ear. I myself sometimes wish that I would be less constrained by sheet music, as that is was I grew up with playing brass instruments for ten years. But off course, I'm able to read every bit of sheet music on these forums, which is a great tool for learning new music. What I want to say is....Yes. More people need to learn sheet music. My brother recently picked up the guitar and piano, and he has to learn from watching people playing on youtube. My mother has been playing the sax for quite some time, so she reads sheet music. But my father, who play the piano and a fiddle from his father, manages to produce beautiful music from memory and ear. To summarize, being able to read sheet music is not a prerequisite to be able to play music, but is a really handy tool when it comes to more elaborate music, learning, bands and such. So I agree with you that people need to learn how to read sheet music. To address the other matter you speak of: Musical education in schools needs to be way more serious. During the one year we actually had grades in music as a course, my friend and I where supposed to learn the bass guitar. You see, both me and my friend plays the Tuba. There where two groups, one who should learn the guitar, and the other who learned "Rhythm instruments" Bass guitar was in the latter group. <_< Off course, most went to the guitar group, mainstream as it is. No-one was truly interested in learning the guitar, it was just the cooler of the groups. But anyway, there we sat with out rhythm gear. My friend and I never actually got to touch the two bass guitars, and we wanted to learn. We where supposed to practice at some music we should play with the other group, but that never happened. Moral of the story? It was a year of waiting, boredom and disappointments that probably killed the interest for music in some of the students. Perhaps we should sue the schools for "deteriorating the rest of our lives." 
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| Moonsyne | May 4 2008, 08:39 PM Post #9 |
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Creatively Processing
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I had 12 years of that before college. |
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| ImmortalOffspring | May 4 2008, 08:42 PM Post #10 |
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One with the floor
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Of the musical kind? |
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| Moonsyne | May 4 2008, 08:46 PM Post #11 |
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Creatively Processing
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I've always been disappointed on the music front in school. I was in band in High School, but learned nothing from the teacher who was more interested in her choir going to state. 90% of the time, she wasn't in the room. I learned sheet music from a cranky sax player who was in charge of our section. |
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| ImmortalOffspring | May 4 2008, 09:05 PM Post #12 |
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One with the floor
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Ouch. I feel for you Moonsyne. Luckily for me, our different band leaders are all volunteers, and really likes band music. Most play some sort of instruments, and some play in the elite of the bands of Norway. Combine that with yearly exhibitions and national competitions, they really have helped me retain my interest for music. On the other hand, I am pretty disappointed with my school, which never managed to end all the bullying going around. kids can be pretty gruesome. I even had to quit playing football, because our trainer was the father of the worst bully around. Just goes to show that interest in anything really depends a lot on the people who train you.
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| shadowyi | May 4 2008, 09:19 PM Post #13 |
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[music of paradox]
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I'm so sorry, it sucks when schools differ wildly by quality of various programs.
:unsure: And therein lies another subject that I always harp on. I agree with Immortal that there definitely needs to be more serious attention paid towards musical education in schools. Music = enjoyment = happy kids = less likely to be prone to violence? Why is it that whenever budgets are cut the fine arts department always goes first? Granted, music is an intangible skill, you can't point to something like say, an engineer can and say "I built that". Reminds me of what I read in a book once (avid reader of fantasy here!). When men are cooped up in a castle for the dreary months of winter, it's the bard that keeps them sane and makes the days bearable. Of course, as soon as winter's over the men forgets all about the bard and attributes it to their own abilities for enduring a harsh winter. Tsk! :angry: Although reading your posts a con of making music education mandatory occurred to me. People could be locked into performing music exactly the way it is written, killing the creativity of improvisation and composing. Hmm, but I'd rather have to deal with that problem then the ones we've been talking about. So in my opinion, there needs to be more serious thought invested into music education, more standardization of music curriculum, and more efforts to promote interest in music over all. Now if only I were an educator.. B) |
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| CursingLlama | May 4 2008, 09:22 PM Post #14 |
Pendanters x 2
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My highschool band was a competitive marching band. The four years while I participated we were in the Atlantic Coast Championships (ACC) three of those years. The thing is there were a few students in the band whom where there only because their parents made them do it, because of that they but no real effort into it and very likely kept us from going as far as we could (of the 3 years of ACC's which is composed of 25 bands we did not place higher than 22nd). Though I believe that music is a great way to relax and can be enjoyable there are those who do not find playing music to be interesting. Forcing something like this on to someone who does not want to participate should not be done. |
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| shadowyi | May 4 2008, 09:24 PM Post #15 |
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[music of paradox]
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Hmm, good point. We should disband our schools then! :lol: That is a very valid point, and for that reason I hate math. :P How about mandatory only to a certain age? Say.. middle school. Then those who truly love it can continue, but those who don't at least know what the note names are and such. |
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| Myung | May 4 2008, 09:32 PM Post #16 |
~MOHAWKGURLE~
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Perhaps it should not be mandatory, but it would be nice if there was alot more encouragement for young kids. I know when I was younger I had no particular interest in making music but perhaps that would have been sparked by the right positive motivation. I hope to atleast encourage the younger kids in my family to do something with music. |
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| ImmortalOffspring | May 4 2008, 09:54 PM Post #17 |
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One with the floor
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Aye. Music is something you carry on with you in life. Sometimes it's the fire in your blood that makes your pulse rise and your heart quicken. And sometimes it's somewhere to flee from all the stress of the world. I love music. And when I'm really nervous about something, or just stressed out, I like to pick up my ocarina and just let the stress flow away with the music. |
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| kissing | May 6 2008, 07:13 AM Post #18 |
The Whistleblower
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I think music should only be mandatory up to a certain level, and afterwards should be by choice. In the schools I attended in Australia, it was compulsory up to first year of junior high. I am very thankful for the mandatory musical education in those young days. While I didn't really enjoy the lessons themselves that much (recorder, xylophone, assignments yuck), and at the time I didn't have the same passion for music as I do now - it gave me the essentials such as understanding sheet music. Like shadowyi (can I call you by your name here?) I was actually surprised to see the number of people who apparently have not learned about sheet music before. I don't think it should be something mandatory required for graduation though. The reason why I didn't particularly enjoy music at school was because it was graded and assessed as any other subject, be it maths and science. I see music as something very personal and those who want to pursue music for life are those motivated enough to keep at it without teachers telling you to practice and are able to independently improve at their own pace (as long as they're producing good results. If not, professional help and training would be beneficial). As much as I would love the ocarina to become more popular and enjoyed by more people, I would not like to see it become a graded instrument that is taught in a strict way. |
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| DeepRed | May 6 2008, 07:54 AM Post #19 |
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Official TON Signature Maker!
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I'm aghast at some of the stories I've read here! It seems that in the UK we're extremely lucky to have compulsory music (and fine arts and crafts) education! You can't pass unless you're competent at reading sheet music and at playing at least one instrument! We also had after school music classes that anyone could do, and an after school choir! I guess even for the UK I was luckier than most, since I went to a grammar school, most other schools don't get the extras we did. I thought this was the norm, but it seems in most of the world the opposite holds true! That's terrible, is music just for the the rich and privileged in some countries? Now I count myself extremely lucky for the education I had.... |
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| Mavari | May 6 2008, 09:56 AM Post #20 |
Island Bound OIT
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Mmmh ~Starts taking notes of everyones opinion on music in schools for future reference~ I only had one year of musical education in school, and that was years ago for the 4th grade. While I had a crush on the teacher, I don't believe I learn anything other than how to use the recorder as an audio weapon. I'm more for the idea of a general music introduction being mandatory. A class that combines education and appreciation so that the students can be introduced to a variety of different kinds of instruments, song, theories and so on, simply to open the venue to them and spur interest. That sounds more effective than forcing mindless recorder songs onto them by disinterested teachers willing to exchange squeaking for screaming. After that, it should be an elective. As for when this class should be placed, I'm unsure but semi-early sounds better. Too early seems better than too late so that even if the knowledge drips out of their brains, the memories might keep the interest there. On a side note shadow it's something of an insult to try and compare an engineer to an art student of any kind. To both parties in my opinion as there is no way in hell that the art student handles even half the workload that an engineer does, in equal proportion to the engineer not understanding what it is to be so addicted to a focus that you stay up for days practicing. Both can be very dedicated and focused, I just don't believe there should be an attempt at comparison. Besides, the vast majority of schools are designed to give the children a mixture of dampening, brainwashing, and prepare them to fit into nice little slots in society. Not to encourage them to be themselves or to be very different. The technical purpose of the school is to prepare each and every child to be able to survive and thrive in life as they desire to without inflicting harm on others. This is generally discarded in favour of making sheep. And I'd say that the bottom line dominates too, better, in their minds, to produce boring people who can do a job, than happy people who aren't wiling to sacrifice their passion for menial jobs. Oh and DR, music is definitely only for the moderately wealthy and up here in the Bahamas. Both due to the difficulty of obtaining good instruments, and of finding actual teachers. I think for the entire country we have three music schools, and a sprinkling of instructors. Before I discovered the ocarina, I received a violin as a present and was very hot about starting with it. Unfortunately, I cannot afford $400+ a month for 8 lessons. ~Sighs~ Man I rambled on there. Oh well, let me know if my $0.03 was worth anything ^_^ |
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| flip | May 6 2008, 02:43 PM Post #21 |
"the switch"
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Wow...so many experiences in so many places! When I attended school, music was mandatory until like 9th Grade(14-15 yrs old). I had to play the recorder and make ears bleed, but I did join band in 6th grade. I played trombone for a few years and then a new music teacher came in and killed it for me. By the time I got into the ocarina (about September last year), I had lost almost all of it. Although, everytime I see a C on the Treble Clef, I want to say that it's an E (I played Bass Clef). So, now to the question above...I think music education should be mandatory up to a certain age. But instead of having kids use recorders and play Mary Had a Little Lamb, they should use Ocarinas and teach them to play Canon Rock and Zelda songs. 
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| ImmortalOffspring | May 6 2008, 03:05 PM Post #22 |
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One with the floor
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Perhaps Canon Rock would discourage the kids from playing, it being mad hard and all. 
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| shadowyi | May 6 2008, 04:16 PM Post #23 |
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[music of paradox]
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Mavari: Oh I apologize, I hadn't meant to make a direct comparison. It was the first thing my mind seized on (and the fact that I do have a friend with a sheer brilliance for music, but his parents wanted him to be an engineer, and thus he slogs away at ridiculously hard work.
:unsure: ). Where are you coming from with your views? Admittedly, I have no idea the travails an engineer goes through, but my mother was a piano performance major in college and that was no cake walk. She practiced around 12 hours a day, every day, and barely did anything else in college. I was referring more to the tendency of people to dismiss all the hard work and emotional strength needed for music majors when I was expressing my displeasure.
Flip: Hmm, I'm not sure if the ocarina replacing the recorder is such a good idea. A lot of our current dislike of recorders was being forced to play it when we were small. It's not a professional mainstream instrument, and thus lots of people think it's a toy instrument. I personally feel there are enough people out there already who either a) don't know what an ocarina is, or B) scoff at those who play it that we don't need more people growing up to be ocarina haters because of their experience in elementary school. I think those of us who had mandatory music education attended better off schools than those who didn't. And therein lies the problem of funding parity. When I'm with my classmates I think it's a normal thing to bicker about not wanting to go to music lessons and after school activities. But it's only when I talk with others from different backgrounds that I realized how unbelievably lucky I've been to be so privileged. Definitely something for Congress to work on, or our next President: better fine arts education in elementary/middle schools! I hate how people come out of schools thinking doctor/lawyer/engineer/accountant is the only way to go, and if not you'll be flipping burgers for the rest of your life. :angry: |
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| ImmortalOffspring | May 6 2008, 04:37 PM Post #24 |
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One with the floor
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Aye, true enough. But where I live, there's few jobs vs. number of professional musicians. Which means that it is dead hard to get entry to a school which teaches art stuff like dancing or instruments. You either need to get straight A's or be truly exceptional at what you are doing. Which again discourage a lot of people. Engineers who graduate at the best school we have in our country is nearly guaranteed a job. Quite a few actually got a job before they graduated. Oh but kids will be kids. I moaned myself about my music lessons, and I'm sure I've moaned more than once over having to attend band practice. But luckily, my parents pulled me through, and I had no football to compete with it. Sadly, Football and other sport activities will always be considered superior by the masses, even though the community is much better and you never have to worry about not being good enough to continue. |
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| Moonsyne | May 6 2008, 04:40 PM Post #25 |
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Creatively Processing
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We had manditory square dancing *shutter* |
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| Myung | May 6 2008, 04:45 PM Post #26 |
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~MOHAWKGURLE~
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 hahaha XD really?
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| ImmortalOffspring | May 6 2008, 06:07 PM Post #27 |
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One with the floor
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Oh jeez, the pain. A friend of mine had dancing in physical education. Luckily, he taught us Salsa. Unluckily, none of the girls where able to avert their eyes from his butt. <_< You try dancing with someone entirely fixated on something else.
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| Mavari | May 6 2008, 06:57 PM Post #28 |
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Island Bound OIT
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Immortal, I don't think your friend meant to but he sounds like the guy who always takes his shirt off in PE to make the girls drool. It's seriously annoying to be dead tired after a game, and hear 20 girls scream completely at random scaring the bleeding hell out of you -.- Shadow: I'm coming from a habit of mine to remind people of bad arguments or the other side of a particular view. I had a friend who ended up as an engineer, and he complained about the reverse. A bunch of flippant sketch artists trying to make him feel bad for taking a 'soulless, money grubbing' path. I just wanted to make my own note that both sides have their hard work and passion and value. Oh and Moon that is beyond hilarious XD Where the heck did you grow up to get those? |
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| ImmortalOffspring | May 6 2008, 07:07 PM Post #29 |
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One with the floor
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Oh, my friend is nothing of that sort. He's just a great dancer, and salsa is a pretty.... ehm... sensual (?) dance. He's not a showoff, but he's great at what he's doing. |
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| Moonsyne | May 6 2008, 07:09 PM Post #30 |
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Creatively Processing
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Oregon. Even worse, they bussed in all the other schools in the area and numerically selected partners. Luck always put the shortest guy with the tallest girl, you now. I always seemed to get that guy who can't stop picking his nose.
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