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The Acute Bend; for high D,E,F notes of Alto C Ocarinas
Topic Started: 5 Feb 2008, 03:02 AM (33,529 Views)
Ocarinadiva
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Play what makes you happy. - Achint

Right is right. Wrong is wrong. The acute bend is a valid technique and anyone who says otherwise is wrong. It isn't arrogant to point this out. It isn't mean spirited to let people know when they are categorically wrong.

Does anyone here still think that the acute bend isn't a valid technique?





@ bat


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Bateleur
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Meh.

lol
I need to have fun like this more often.
Edited by Bateleur, 3 Oct 2011, 12:55 AM.
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Achint
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Fat Mouse >^_^<

Ocarinadiva
3 Oct 2011, 12:14 AM
Right is right. Wrong is wrong. The acute bend is a valid technique and anyone who says otherwise is wrong.
You keep saying this. But you haven;t pointed out any evidence so far to prove that people have in fact said this.
Please, I urge you once again to tell me where I went wrong.

I keep trying to tell you that no one has explicitly said it's an invalid technique, but you need to get off your high horse to actually hear me.
Cris, having one album and a live show doesn't make you a freakin' superstar and better than everyone else. Get your head out of the stars and listen to what people have to say.
Edited by Achint, 3 Oct 2011, 12:45 AM.
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Ocarinadiva
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Play what makes you happy. - Achint

Achint
3 Oct 2011, 12:34 AM
You keep saying this. But you haven;t pointed out any evidence so far to prove that people have in fact said this.
Please, I urge you once again to tell me where I went wrong.

I keep trying to tell you that no one has explicitly said it's an invalid technique, but you need to get off your high horse to actually hear me.
Cris, having one album and a live show doesn't make you a freakin' superstar and better than everyone else. Get your head out of the stars and listen to what people have to say.
If you're going to insult me by calling out my concert and CD, you could at least link to them :)

BTW: Read the thread.
Edited by Ocarinadiva, 3 Oct 2011, 12:50 AM.
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Bateleur
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Meh.

I applaud you for not using your usual ammo, but instead sticking to a more forward explanation of your feelings on the matter. Indeed, some people need more coddling than others due to their sensitivities, especially those who get so tightly wound and emotionally invested into a thread as to project their own personal issues onto their perceived adversaries. I am actually a fan of coddling and cuddling, other sweet stuff too. :3
Don't correlate my fondness for cuddling with my drive to prove to you just how correct you are about right being right and wrong being wrong, and along the way, having a little fun with it.

There's nothing invalid about the acute bend! Pointing out that it's not invalid isn't arrogant in the slightest! Of course, the matter of method of delivery is the clear factor that decides arrogance. In this case, I really doubt I need to reillustrate your arrogance in any manner. You speak very clearly for yourself on your humility. Perhaps your recent public performance successes have gone to your head, but that's just conjecture.

Here's some more conjecture. Perhaps you're just being particularly nasty in this thread because you have too much emotional investment in the subject, causing lots of wonderfully entertaining edgy and moody retorts. Perhaps you're too emotionally invested due to having self esteem and insecurity issues! That's actually no bad thing at all, as many of us friends here on TON suffer from the possession of a drab self image. It's impossible though. Not up on that beautiful pedestal.... Just impossible.

It isn't mean spirited to categorically inform people of when and how they are wrong. However, publically noting that you won't give such a person the time of day because they're not worth your time? Yes..... that's actually extremely condescending.

Truth is that there are very few absolutes in the ocarina world. Something being accepted as a norm is based around universal public acceptance. Public acceptance is very easy to change over time. Unfortunate that the fans of the 10-hole ocarinas can't be welcomed to get their foot into the public perception due to a hypocritical mother bear who once skullbashed her way into the core of TNG's reputation on TON.

I think I am actually going to cry myself to sleep tonight. An unjustly cocky and lackluster performer thinks ill of me and said really mean things to me on the internet. I need some cuddles to make me feel better. :C
Edited by Bateleur, 3 Oct 2011, 01:00 AM.
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Ocarinadiva
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Play what makes you happy. - Achint

Wow. I didn't know I was really upsetting you. I'm sincerely sorry.

We went from talking about the acute bend to lots of personal insults against me. Whatever it is that is making you feel this way. I forgive your actions and I hope things get better for you. I bear absolutely no hard feelings toward you.
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Bateleur
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Meh.

*hugs* :3
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Achint
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Fat Mouse >^_^<

Here you go Cris. Here is every single post from this thread where something negative was said about the acute bend.
And here is where I show you how wrong you've been and how many people you've insulted on the way because of your arrogance.

Here is the first negative quote:
Deckman
 
some alto c ocarinas sound airy on high notes regardless of whether you use an acute bend.


Fair enough. He may have had a crappy ocarina or he was doing it wrong, no biggie. Moving on.

Jack Campin
 
Strangles your breathing, looks silly, disrupts eye contact with anyone you're playing with, you can't do it in fast music and it's an excuse for bungled design.


Kissing replied to this quote explaining that there is a physics behind the acute bend and that it's how the instrument is meant to be played. Also fair enough. Moving on.

Jack Campin
 
It seems you have to wrinkle your forehead and look really, really worried before that top note comes out.

Nothing about it's validity here, just that you look silly. To which Kres adds:

Krešimir Cindrić
 
And don't forget to stare at one point all the time, so it looks like you're concentrating really hard.

Ok... still nothing about validity.

kissing
 
Well you gotta remember, the "acute bend" isn't some magic wand technique that automatically makes high notes sound good on every ocarina.

GASP! Is he?! NO! ...Oh phew, wait... he's only asking people to keep in mind it's not a magic technique that'll compromise for bad playing... ok good... no validity issues here.

Krešimir Cindrić
 
This is very true. But often people don't realise that - they notice instant improvement with acute bend, which can somewhat mask the poor breathing technique. Learn to get the best possible sound without "acute bend" on your ocarina - after that you can easily tilt your head downwards and make it even better.


LOLWUT?! Did Kres just say the technique is valid?! HOLY MOTHER OF GOD!
Hey, hey Cris. I urge to look at those words carefully. "Tilt your head downwards and make it even better." I can only assume by way of correct English that this means he is actually validating the technique. Maybe he isn't condoning it, but hey, it's not invalid in his eyes.

Achint
 
I think a beginner needs to be able to distinguish between when he's breathing properly and when the acute bend is helping him out.


Right, something about people should play well before using the acute bend... cool. Very similar to what kissing said, worded differently.

Krešimir Cindrić
 
a flaw in the instrument has become so common that people consider it typical and accept it?

AHA! The first bad true bad thing that anyone has said in this thread. Oh wait... nothing about the technique's validity. *sigh*

Here's where the 10 -Hole / 12-Hole debate began. Kres talking about this in TC and I agreed with people when he said he wasn't taking into account the specific instrument for which the acute bend needs to be taken into consideration. He agreed, said that the better 12 holes didn't really need it, I agreed, we moved on.

Achint
 
I'm not against the technique at all. I have seen the difference in sound that it makes and know that it is a valid and very useful technique.

Lalala, I love the acute bend. Such good shiz.

So far, not a mention of the word "Invalid". Ok then? So where does this word keep popping up from?

Ocarinadiva
 
There are quite a few members here who play Italian style ocarinas, but the vast majority still play Asian style, so you are doing the community a huge disservice by saying that the technique known here as the "Acute Bend" is not a valid technique.

OH! LOOK! LOOOOOK! THE WORD VALID JUST POPPED UP!
Oh... no way. Cris? Did you know you were putting words in other people's mouths? Pish tosh, no biggie. We'll just move on and hope no one else uses such unnecessary words.

kissing
 
I'm not entirely sure whether you discourage the technique because you personally believe it to be an invalid technique, or because you believe it hinders learning.

*mega facepalm*

Annnyyyway, moving on.

Bateleur
 
The acute bend to me just makes the ocarina seem louder since the sound waves are now bouncing off my chest to my ears. It doesn't necessarily lessen a weak tone for me. On any of my good quality ocarinas, it's not even necessary.


Ok, so he's saying it doesn't work for him... Fair do's.

And then next post he said:
Bateleur
 
Didn't want to come off as saying that the acute bend doesn't work. Surely there are ocarinas that do benefit from its use.


Ohhh ok, so it's not that it doesn't work... It just doesn't work FOR HIM. Sweet. K, moving on.

Krešimir Cindrić
 
Yes, on some ocarinas, "acute bend" is a necessary evil.

Ok, so it's necessary... not invalid... necessary. And I think by "some" he means "12-Hole" over here, if you go back and read the topic again.

Jack Campin
 
Any instrument that forces you to stare at the floor is a barrier to communication with the audience.

Nothing about validity... just that it hinders communication with the audience.

*snigger* *insert cruel joke about Ocarinadiva's lack of communication with her audience at live shows here* Oh haha, I'm so clever no?

Krešimir Cindrić
 
Emiliano is very much against the acute bend technique, pretty much as any good Italian ocarina player, except maybe Paolo Gavelli.

Theeeeeere we go. FINALLY! Someone who is completely against the acute bend. But oh wait... they're 10-hole ocarina players. I have however read somewhere that they reprimanded Tytoalba for making 12-holes that needed acute bend, so perhaps they've played 12-holes which never needed it....

Oh well, there's a bunch Italian people who don't agree with you Cris... BEHEAD THEM I SAY! How could they not agree with Princess Cris?! *GASP!* Don't they know you're not allowed to have opinions?! Fools... all of them.

Ocarinadiva
 
Moreover, I'm really surprised people are still arguing against its use.


*mega facepalm*
Oh Cris... You're so precious.

Ocarinadiva
 
It wouldn't seem so condescending if you actually knew what you were talking about.

And then you start bashing people...

And then drama unfolds.

So Cris. I've read the entire thread. Quoted for your convenience since you're so busy and all.
Tell me, who should be reading the thread then? And who should stop reading into people's posts then?

Are you willing to take back all the mean things you've said about people? Or with evidence this clear does your lovely horse still need brushing?




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geotjakra
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lol! I hereby put-forth a request that the name of TON be changed to TODN (The Ocarina Drama Network), that should prepare some of the newer members to what is to come, and we should have invited Shakespeare to join the forum if he is still alive, Alfred Hitchcock might have found this forum intriguing as well, etc..... :P
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Bateleur
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Meh.

Remember how important it will be to provide free boxes of tissues and psychotherapy coupons to those who just can't stand the heat of the kitchen. I for one could use both of those things. :cry:
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Jack Campin
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"Validity" is not a very useful concept here. I don't go into pubs that have wide-tv-screen football on. Not my idea of fun but I don't think "that pub is invalid".

My problem with the acute bend is the design that goes along with it. It really doesn't matter that much for a lot of music if the top note is a bit airy - usually that tone colour will develop gradually across the upper end of the range, so the audience gets used to the sound. So even if an ocarina "requires" the acute bend, it may not require it for me: mostly I play folk music, where inhomogeneities of tone colour are to be expected. If I hold my head up, look people in the eye across the room as the tune reaches its climax, blow hell out of the ocarina and still get a bit of breathiness, nobody's going to care.

So, would I actually lose anything by going for an ocarina designed to require it? As a matter of fact, yes I would. An ocarina designed that way will always be a 12-hole, which will have a musically useless low A (on tytoalba's figures, never less than 10dB softer than the note above) operated by a hole that gets in the way of rapid fingering. Even if you never use it, you have to make an effort all the time not to cover it by accident.

It can be as valid as you want, I'm not going to buy one, given that I can get an ocarina with one or two less holes, one or two semitones less range, and hence considerably better ergonomics for what I'm going to do with it.
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spencersocarinas
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ocarina maker

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_Sil26m59c&feature=related

Player: Fabio Galliani
Ocarina: Custom painted Menaglio 10-hole (of Galliani's own personal selection, I'm sure)

Notice what he does at 1:10 to play high F.

But perhaps this is just another "bad" 10-hole ocarina. Poor Fabio can't seem to find a "good" ocarina, I guess!

:)
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Ocarinadiva
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Play what makes you happy. - Achint

@ Achint: Look up what valid means. You also missed a bit.
This is what I found with a quick cursory look :






I think it is unfortunate that certain people who prefer 10 hole ocarinas feel the need to disparage other ocarinas and the techniques for those ocarinas in an effort to make 10 hole ocarinas look better.

Focusing on an ocarina's characteristics and educating people about those characteristics is far more productive than taking an evangelical approach. I'd be happy to take part in a discussion here on how to better promote the Italian tradition as well as Italian ocarinas in general.

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Jack Campin
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Opener of Catfood Tins

It's the last note in the tune so it doesn't matter if it looks odd - players often do odd things at the very end of wacky tunes like that (he also pulls the ocarina out of his mouth to stop that note, another technique you would not use routinely in the middle of a performance). If it was repeated quickly I'd either live with rough tone quality or just use a recorder or flute instead.

What I don't get is why other makers like Songbird are willing to make 10-hole ocarinas as well as their larger-volume lines and succeed in selling them, but you won't, when you obviously have the skills to do it.
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Bateleur
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Meh.

I find this video of interest as well.


It's interesting how he curls his hand whenever he hits that high F. He doesn't seem to want to arch down to acute bend in the middle of the piece, though he does save it for the final note. It's possibly an acute bend, also possibly a stylistic maneuver to mark the end of his performance.
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Achint
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Fat Mouse >^_^<

Lol Cris. If you gave it more than a cursory look you would've noticed my quotes are from the ones you've posted. And they're the parts that actually matter. The rest of the phrases are all opinions by people who have already stated that the acute bend is not an invalid technique.
And those that are not opinions and phrases which accuse the acute bend of being useless were corrected by kissing and Spencer and the issue was resolved.


Perhaps I'm not the one who should be "reading" the thread.

And no, I'm not looking up squat. You seem to have a better understanding of everything in this world and all that it entails. I'm too stupid to match up to your infinite wisdom.
I can't argue anymore... I'm tired of arguing and I don't like doing it.

Edited by Achint, 3 Oct 2011, 04:12 AM.
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Philip
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KypSyd

Achint you did kinda pick and choose which quotes to add and which to ignore. I can see both sides to the story though and think this whole arguement has arisen from nothing. Maybe we should all stop throwing insults at each other and focus on resolving this debate on the technique

I think we have all agreed that it is a legitimate technique for 12 hole ocarinas.



Just a matter of curiosity though, can someone post a video of a 10 hole played with and without the acute bend and demonstrate that it does not benefit at all from the technique? Im not saying it will benefit, but id just like to see a video as I am curious to see if it will have:

A) NO affect whatsoever

B) A slight affect that is so small that it therefore renders the use of the technique useless

C) A noticeable affect
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spencersocarinas
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Jack Campin
3 Oct 2011, 03:04 AM
What I don't get is why other makers like Songbird are willing to make 10-hole ocarinas as well as their larger-volume lines and succeed in selling them, but you won't, when you obviously have the skills to do it.
"Won't" and "haven't yet" are two different things. :)
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Achint
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Fat Mouse >^_^<

KypSyd
3 Oct 2011, 03:35 AM
Achint you did kinda pick and choose which quotes to add and which to ignore.
I did indeed Kyp. But as I illustrated to Cris on TC (where I was ignored btw.)

The quotes I have chosen are what matter. After that, everything is opinion and why people PERSONALLY don't like the acute bend or why they think it is not a good technique.
What I was trying to illustrate through my quotes is that EVERYONE can agree that the acute bend works. Which is what Cris is so vehemently trying to debate. She thinks that we think it's an "invalid" technique. None of us think that. And that is what those quotes were trying to imply.

Also, I tried to proved that no one except Cris herself has been throwing the word "valid" around.
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Philip
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KypSyd

But can you see that from all the negative posts being thrown around, the word VALID doesnt have to be used for someone to imply that the technique is not valid.


EXAMPLES

This has to be one of the most misconceived ideas ever in musical instrument playing technique.

The bottom line is that if your ocarina needs it, you've got a dud.

When we accept this as a truth, it means we've lost all criteria regarding quality.

great ocarina musicians who say "acute bend" is nothing but ridiculous acrobatics.

by treating "acute bend" as something normal and sometimes, even beneficial, which is complete nonsense.

Yes, on some ocarinas, "acute bend" is a necessary evil.

Is this an example that proves that the technique is not ridiculous? Of course not! Some ocarinas require "acute bend".

with this so-called "technique"




Although this sums up what you guys are trying to say:


Keep in mind, I am not advocating against the use of "acute bend" in cases where there is no other solution. Sometimes it is a necessary evil, when you have such an ocarina which cannot make clear high notes without such gymnastics. But sometimes, a proper breathing technique, or different position of the wrist of the left hand can fix the problem of bad high notes.





I think at the end of the day, you guys are trying to say that a 12 hole ocarina which cannot sound a decent high note unless the acute bend is used is a dud - which I would probably even agree with. All decent 12 holes should sound clear high notes even without the technique. However, the tone of the high notes will be increased with the use of the technique

But to say that a 12 hole ocarina doesnt benefit from the use of this technique is wrong, but im not sure that anyone is really trying to imply this. Maybe the harsh wording against the technique has thrown us off what you are actually trying to say
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Achint
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Fat Mouse >^_^<

Cris and I talked over TinyChat to sort stuff out.
I understand her better and she understand me better.

Let me try to explain what she says as briefly as possible.

She agrees, first of all, that everyone understands that everyone knows how to do the acute bend. At first she didn't agree that everyone agreed it was valid. However, after telling her that everyone does in fact agree it's a "valid" technique, i.e. that it makes stuff sound better she agreed to let it go.
(Thank God that's over x.x)

When she called people snobs and idiots (which is why I personally was offended) she said she wasn't targeting anyone specific and that the snobs and idiots were just anyone who made make one ocarina look bad in order to make another look better.

I explained that while everyone agrees that the acute bend works, everything else after that is opinion and that opinion should be taken as such.
She agreed however, she said that opinions should not be part of a "technique" thread as it may put off beginners. Statements such as "if the ocarina needs the acute bend it's a dud" might say to a beginner that their ocarina is useless and make them quit altogether.
She feels that beginner's shouldn't feel that there is an inherent risk involved in buying an ocarina, to which I said that there is a risk in buying any instrument and that forums are all about personal opinions.

She said that she thought Kres was speaking in absolutes and for this reason got annoyed at his statements.
Kres I can't speak for you so you're going to have to say whether it was opinion or absolutes.

She also understood Bat's, Jack's and my personal reasons for disliking the acute bend (despite that fact that it worked) and that short sentences might've been better to help make our point rather than the 12 hole bashing that took place a couple weeks ago.
I argued that it wasn't bashing and that people had valid reasons for not liking the sub holes.
She still felt that clear cut sentences like "I dislike the acute bend because _________" or "I prefer 10 holes because________" would've been better,
While I kinda agree with that, it's not always going to be so simple and so people would need to sift through the statements and find what they're looking for in a post.

And that was it. I'm satisfied that she understands me better and I get her better, so personally I'm done with the drama.

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Ocarinadiva
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Play what makes you happy. - Achint

It is really great that we can all agree that the acute bend is a valid technique. I can understand people have different preferences, and it is good to know that no one here is categorically against its use.






@ Achint



@ Bat
Edited by Ocarinadiva, 3 Oct 2011, 05:07 AM.
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Bateleur
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Meh.

I suggest a Kiln thread be opened regarding the usefulness of the qualities of a 10-hole ocarina in the Italian style versus the 12-hole ocarina in the Oriental style. I believe it would be very enlightening and open up a great deal of new understanding in this community.
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Cambell
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That guy

That sounds very interesting Bat! I second this :)

The acute bend is definitely useful for 12 hole ocarinas. I don't own any 10- or 11-holes, so I cannot say for them. I practice without using it, but employ it in 'performance' to add a little bit of clarity to the highest notes on my Focalink S-types.

I am extremely curious as to the differences in sounds between 10-, 11- and 12-hole ocs. I would love to get one of Mr. Pacchioni's ocarinas, preferably a double. I think they are beautiful C: more of a rustic look.
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kissing
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tyrannical dictator

So basically it appears:

Is the acute bend a valid technique?
Unanimously yes



Do you personally like this technique?
different opinions
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Jack Campin
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Opener of Catfood Tins

Intriguing data point on this. The new instructional videos from GOB

http://theocarinanetwork.com/topic/7102362/1/

use what I think is the Noble plastic AC, which you might expect to benefit from the acute bend. And they teach it, here:

http://www.youtube.com/user/ocarinagroup#p/u/7/_-dWfLrjx5Q

Fair enough (though 100 people doing it all together, as intended, would look like a Catholic church service). BUT, on my built-in monitor speakers anyway, I can hear exactly zero difference between with and without. The sound isn't any clearer, as they say it is.

I'm wondering if, in this instance at least, this is a near-field effect that only the player gets to hear. You get a lot of that with guitars and also with whistles and flutes.

Objective measurements at various distances, anybody?
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spencersocarinas
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ocarina maker

Jack Campin
26 Oct 2011, 11:31 PM
Intriguing data point on this. The new instructional videos from GOB

http://theocarinanetwork.com/topic/7102362/1/

use what I think is the Noble plastic AC, which you might expect to benefit from the acute bend. And they teach it, here:

http://www.youtube.com/user/ocarinagroup#p/u/7/_-dWfLrjx5Q

Fair enough (though 100 people doing it all together, as intended, would look like a Catholic church service). BUT, on my built-in monitor speakers anyway, I can hear exactly zero difference between with and without. The sound isn't any clearer, as they say it is.

I'm wondering if, in this instance at least, this is a near-field effect that only the player gets to hear. You get a lot of that with guitars and also with whistles and flutes.

Objective measurements at various distances, anybody?
Interesting. This confirms what I had suggested earlier about Emiliano and the acute bend, and it refutes what Kresimir suggested (that he does not endorse using the technique when playing 12-hole alto C ocarinas). As for the difference in sound, I think that would be much easier to discern with a higher quality recording. I could also demonstrate that it is not merely a "field effect", as you suggest, by recording ocarinas with and without the acute bend using a high quality (condenser) microphone.

In conclusion, all of the modern day professional ocarinists, including Sojiro, Osawa, Emiliano and Fabio from GOB, and Paolo Gavelli use the acute bend when playing Asian style ocarinas.

If it's good enough for them, it's good enough for me. :ocarina:

Spencer
Edited by spencersocarinas, 27 Oct 2011, 05:31 AM.
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kissing
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tyrannical dictator

Some ocarinas depend on the technique. If you don't acute bend well, the high notes are very volatile.


There are those who consider this property of an ocarina to be unfavourable. That is a matter of personal taste.

However, what it does confirm is that acute bend does make a clear difference.
It makes no logical sense to condemn ocarinas that require acute bend to be "inferior" when you refute that the technique even works!
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Jack Campin
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Opener of Catfood Tins

I'm not in a position to refute anything without objective data and neither are you.

It is at least clear in that video, with that ocarina and that performer in that acoustic and recording setup, that dramatic contortions don't produce a dramatic difference in sound.
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tytoalba
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Inline Ocarinist x 2

His uncertainty is due to the instrument used in the video: a high-performance plastic Noble! Better than many ceramic ocarinas ...
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Sarume
doremifaso

well, the strange thing about the acute bend is, that some ocarinas really need it (focalink plastic AC for me) while others doesn't seem to have a difference if i used it or not.

Today i recieved the focalink forte set from Twoflower (thank you again!) and it actually makes no difference if i use acute bend or not...
Edited by Sarume, 5 Nov 2011, 01:02 PM.
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starhero
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Kenjo The Pomeranian!!!
So is there anyway that we don't use acute bend? Or must we use it?

I believe we can prevent the use of acute bend with 'good' ocarina, but what would actually happen next?
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Philip
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KypSyd

Sarume
 
Today i recieved the focalink forte set from Twoflower (thank you again!) and it actually makes no difference if i use acute bend or not...

Could you possibly upload a video? I am yet to hear a 12 hole ocarina that doesnt benefit even slightly by the use


As stated before, I think all good quality 12 hole ocarinas should sound clear D,E and F notes without the use of the acute bend but thats not to say that they wont at least benefit slightly with its use
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Xeikh
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Zeldarian Ocarinist
Thx a lot for this... It works so good!!!C:
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MeachD
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Inline Ocarinist
Thanks! It was driving me :< trying to figure this out 0_0. I can finally play high notes without them sounding like crap! thanks :D


:muse:
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Jack Campin
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Opener of Catfood Tins

So can I, but I never use acute bend.

What kind of ocarina have you got?
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Gyzyn
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Triple Ocarinist x 4
Wow, MeachD... You are quite an archaeologist... To resurrect such an old thread. :D
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Ayleth
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Hobbit Ocarinist, 12 Hole Tenor C
Gersh. This thread is so drama-filled; it could be soap opera. You guys would make millions off of your silly arguments (after all that's the foundation of soap opera drama).
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